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Thread: The U.S healthcare fiasco

  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by REALITY CHUCK View Post
    Here we have a perfect example of the process of turning off common sense when it gets in the way of clear thinking.
    Certainly; common sense is unquestionable belief independent of proof or logic. . . . RIGHT??? We mustn't let relevant facts obscure our clear thinking.

    Speaking of obscure, do you realize how illogical your statement is?

    Anyway, GET BACK ON TOPIC.

  2. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Programmer View Post
    Here is an example: Whereas politicians will not make legislation that threatens the status-quo visa vis abortion/rowe v. wade, this is used to attract those with deep convictions on the matter. I think that practicality is more logical than moral conviction. I argue that this last presidential election cycle underscored this appeal to morality with it being the basis of both candidates attacks.

    To answer your question directly, moral appeals present a logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moralistic_fallacy ...conscience that overrides sensibility can be a handicap. To soften this assessment, some handicaps are admirable, taking advantage of them for political gain - my original point - that's not admirable in my view.
    Logical fallacies are ALWAYS based on false premises; otherwise the term would be a baseless oxymoron. Although exploitation of morality may be devious, political gain and favorable outcomes are not always incongruous. Those possessing true wisdom can identify the superficial aspects of moral arguments.

    Obviously, you are trying to break down the moral arguments given in defense of the ACA. . . . Good luck refuting them with your rationalized logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike12 View Post
    I'm personally sick of this topic and the misinformation out there.

    Yes ACA has problems but anyone who knows the facts understands that healthcare was a mess before ACA and ACA was never going to fix the many problems a privatized system offers. When healthcare submits to profits (privatized), sick people simply become unprofitable and trying to force insurers to insure the unprofitable at affordable costs is a no win crusade. It's obvious that for insurers to recoup costs of the sick, they must make up losses elsewhere - the healthy. To even suggest that we can solve these problems by not forcing everyone to pay insurance and having the healthy pay more, is stupidity. I have yet to hear a reasonable solution to this problem.. Why do you all think every MAJOR developed country has a nationalized healthcare system?

    Now... to those who say 'repeal', i ask 'for what?' because the healthcare before ACA was as bad or worse than it is now. Not only were costs the highest of any major developed country (by a lot), millions were discriminated against for having pre-existing conditions or for being sick. The costs were also increasing at the same rate (if not more) than they are increasing now. What i don't understand is how people forget that healthcare was a mess before ACA, ACA didn't make it a mess.

    So here we are, instead of trying to improve ACA (attempting to keep the good, solving the bad) here we are with the GOP trying to go back to a system was was arguably even worse. Can congress ever get together to try and improve things? This is embarrassing and just pathetic.

    Good luck trying to come up with a better healthcare plan under a largely privatized system, it is an unsolvable riddle. Healthcare is a right, not a privilege where having healthcare is viewed as the same as having a car, a yacht or a mansion. When sick people are unprofitable business, they need to be paid for by tax payers, end of story. So let's see what Trump and GOP come up with but i anticipate cold feet very soon, because if things get worse (which they probably will), TrumpRyanCare will be to blame and Trump will not want this to be part of his legacy.
    I want you to answer me this simple question do you ever seen health insurance adds run on TV I'm not talking about supplemental insurance but regular health insurance you would think you would you cant watch 30 min of TV with out seeing a car insurance add
    how about Hospitals how many of those adds do you see? and do they ever talk about price for their services at those hospitals in those adds?
    can you answer me why?
    Last edited by TRFjr; Jan 08 2017 at 03:19 PM.
    Elections have Consequences, Trump Won -- Now You Liberals Go Sit in the Back of the Bus

  4. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by lynnlynn View Post
    Since we are mandated to buy coverage, it makes more sense to go to a single payer system where profit is eliminated. The government is certainly in a position to make this happen since all they have to do is to eliminate the self-insured pool and eliminate the 48 million that are fully covered by private insurance. By placing the entire population under a single payer system and fixing the structure of how healthcare is delivered, we could have a affordable system.

    The reason why the government will not do this is it will reduce political donation funding and hurt Wall Street investors.
    Do you advocate universal coverage paid for by taxes, or individual contributions with no mandate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike12 View Post
    everyone knows that single player is the most cost effective, the countries with the best healthcare systems have some sort socializes ascent to ti - single payer or nationalized. The US is the only developed nation with a private healthcare system and it ranks very low on world stage (#37 according to WHO). The issue is what you mention, special interests who seek to profit from the current system have politicians in their pockets. The other problem is that there are many politicians who will simply not accept any system where government runs insurance or medicine, especially when it means more taxes. It doesn't matter that it will be more cost effective and actually save people money (yes more taxes but no premiums, out of pocket expenses which means savings), these politicians are anarchists.


    Yes you are right the single payer system is by far the best. If you or youíre loved ones ever need a serious and life saving operation, you have enough worries without them being added to by thinking of the cost. Thatís what a single payer system gives you for life. Those who denounce it from a political bias are more than stupid I can assure you that the last thing you will be thinking of if an ambulance is rushing you or youíre loved ones to hospital, the last thing on youíre mind will be politics, left or right.

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRFjr View Post
    I want you to answer me this simple question do you ever seen health insurance adds run on TV I'm not talking about supplemental insurance but regular health insurance you would think you would you cant watch 30 min of TV with out seeing a car insurance add
    how about Hospitals how many of those adds do you see? and do they ever talk about price for their services at those hospitals in those adds?
    can you answer me why?
    i view this as irrelevant but waiting for you to tell me why what you posted matters at all.

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike12 View Post
    i view this as irrelevant but waiting for you to tell me why what you posted matters at all.
    it is irreverent to you because you have not a clue about the free market
    Why you see commercials for car insurance and not health insurance because unlike health insurance there is competition in the car insurance market which drives down cost and that is why they advertise
    There is no competition with health insurance some states only allow a few companies to operate in their states there for no competition higher cost you force them to compete it will drive down cost
    but like I have already mentioned you haven't a clue on free markets so that is irrelevant to you
    Elections have Consequences, Trump Won -- Now You Liberals Go Sit in the Back of the Bus

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRFjr View Post
    it is irreverent to you because you have not a clue about the free market
    Why you see commercials for car insurance and not health insurance because unlike health insurance there is competition in the car insurance market which drives down cost and that is why they advertise
    There is no competition with health insurance some states only allow a few companies to operate in their states there for no competition higher cost you force them to compete it will drive down cost
    but like I have already mentioned you haven't a clue on free markets so that is irrelevant to you
    i knew this is where you were headed but wanted to make sure. Realize that now you have just showed me that you don't quite understand the health insurance industry.

    Is there a federal law getting in the way of insurance across state lines? there isn't. So why doesn't it happen? If you truly understood the industry, there are barriers to entry that have nothing to do with government regulations. For an insurance company in Utah to sell insurance in NY, it's an entirely different network of doctors, hospitals to set up contracts with. It's also an entirely different demographics to deal with, which warrants different price setting. Insurance companies also have to deal with different state regulations but varying state regulations is not the main reason insurance companies don't sell across state lines though and neither is any federal regulation. Tell me i'm wrong...
    Last edited by Mike12; Jan 09 2017 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lesh View Post
    AT 30K there re subsidies.

    Besides...what do you think it cost before the ACA?
    I know what it cost before the ACA where I work - overall less than half of what it costs today. And we have the exact same plan we had in 2009. Premiums for the youngest went up the most, in 2009 a single male in his early 20's paid <$100, today that same person pays $650 a month (exact same plan).

    obamacare is a complete failure.
    In the Koran, Surah 8 is titled "al-Anfal" which means "The Spoils of War". Why does the holy book of the "religion of peace" have an entire chapter describing the spoils of war?

    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason, Co-author of the Second Amendment, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike12 View Post
    i knew this is where you were headed but wanted to make sure. Realize that now you have just showed me that you don't quite understand the health insurance industry.

    Is there a federal law getting in the way of insurance across state lines? there isn't. So why doesn't it happen? If you truly understood the industry, there are barriers to entry that have nothing to do with government regulations. For an insurance company in Utah to sell insurance in NY, it's an entirely different network of doctors, hospitals to set up contracts with. It's also an entirely different demographics to deal with, which warrants different price setting. Insurance companies also have to deal with different state regulations but varying state regulations is not the main reason insurance companies don't sell across state lines though and neither is any federal regulation. Tell me i'm wrong...
    No those are state laws and regulations that cause that but the federal government has the constructional right to change that under the commerce clause

    and don't say it can be done because car insurance deals with the same problem of each state having different insurance requirements and they manage to do so
    Last edited by TRFjr; Jan 09 2017 at 06:34 PM.
    Elections have Consequences, Trump Won -- Now You Liberals Go Sit in the Back of the Bus

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