OK. Sleepy, for the sake of argument, I will "concede" that Clinton did absolutely nothing about terrorism and was an abject failure in foreign policy during his terms in office.

[I do not believe that, personally. I believe that Clinton did a lot right, and made some mistakes too. But I won't argue those points here right now.]

So, here you go --- Clinton was a do-nothing and a total failure with regards to terrorism.

So, Sleepy, what did Bush do about it? When Bush took over the Oval Office in January 2001, in the 9 months leading up to 9/11/2001 --- What did Bush do?

*** What did Bush do to secure our homeland?
*** What did Bush do to go after binLaden/AlQaeda?
*** What did Bush do to retaliate for the embassy bombings?
*** What did Bush do to get the terrorists responsible for the USS Cole attack?
*** What did Bush do to clamp down on the nuclear ambitions of Iran and North Korea?
*** What did Bush do to clamp down on the nuclear/WMD ambitions of non-state actors (terrorists like al-Qaeda)?

What did Bush do about terrorism in those first crucial months when he inherited the disasterous remains of the do-nothing Clinton Administration?

This is not a rhetorical question, Sleepy. I want to know, specifically, what you think Bush and his Administration did about terrorism from January 2001 to September 2001.

And then, Sleepy, tell me what has Bush done post-9/11?

It's November 28, 2004:
*** Is our homeland safer now, with more secure seaports, airports and borders?
*** Have we crushed Al Qaeda?
*** Have we captured or killed Osama bin Laden or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi?
*** Are our current military forces large-, trained-, equipped- and flexible-enough to be effectively, globally deployed as needed, even in an "emergency"?
*** Is Afghanistan no longer a terrorist breeding-ground, despite its growing narco-economy?
*** Is Iraq a stable terrorist-free democracy - a beacon of hope to its Middle East neighbors?
*** Is Iran free of nuclear materials, nuclear weapons programs and nuclear ambitions?
*** Has North Korea abandoned its nuclear ambitions, welcoming inspections and turning over its (at least) 8 nuclear weapons?
*** Have we made strides in nuclear non-proliferation, securing loose nuclear materials and weapons, particularly from Pakistan and Russia?

Here it is November, 2004. Bush will be our president for the next 4 years. On Jan. 20, 2005, George W. Bush will officially inherit..... his own presidency. Not Clinton's.

The only relevant question now, in 2004, four years out from the Clinton Adminstration, is..... What has George W. Bush done?

Oh, yeah --- and, also, What will George W. Bush do in his second term?

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Yo, how can I get me one o' them White House press pass thingies?!

You have no idea how Bush will handle North Korea?!

Two reasons for that:
1- Bush hasn't been real clear about it.
2- You haven't been paying attention.

Bush ignored N.Korea for 2 years. Cut off all relations. In the meantime, N.Korea declared itself nuclear and has possibly 8 nuclear weapons. Now, Bush is taking a hardline stance that insists on 6-party multilateral talks, and only 6-party multilateral talks, involving China, Russia, N.Korea, the US, Japan, and S.Korea. But it's a "hardline" based on ideology over pragmatism, and does not seem to involve some of the hard work and long-term thinking and actions that could make these complex talks successful. In fact, it seems that perhaps the US is not really taking the process all that seriously - we may just be "stalling" while waiting/hoping for economic/regime collapse. Will that happen? Who knows? There are currently some signs of political and economic stabilization in N.Korea. If it does happen, is it a good thing (for us and the region), that kind of destabilization? Hmmm...

While the idea of multilateral talks is theoretically positive, the US is refusing to engage in any concurrent bilateral talks with N.Korea whatsoever (unlike other "players" involved). Bilateral talks could make possible the very desirable shorter term goal of immediate cessation of N.Korean nuclear enrichment programs. The US is also refusing to offer (or even discuss the possibility of offering) any kind of economic considerations or security assurances to N.Korea in exchange for "coming to the table". The US is insisting on "CVID" (Complete Verifiable Irreversible Disarmament) before it will even outline a roadmap of reciprocal commitments. Stick over Carrot. Ideology over Pragmatism.

What is happening with Iran and the EU right now in Vienna is fascinating. The US is taking a backseat to France, Germany & Britain - we're watching and hoping that the Carrot approach will fail so the US can step in next year with the big Stick. I'm hoping the EU can really occupy a strong place on the global policy stage now.

As to which one is the greater threat..... both are. Much is dependent on how the US approaches these situations. And how the EU asserts it role as well. Bush's cowboy approach has not inspired much global confidence or many positive results.

The biggest danger is not from the states themselves, but from the non-state actors who benefit from political and economic insecurity and instability. The biggest threat is not from the states possessing these weapons and nuclear material, but from these weapons making it into the hands of terrorists. The presence of nuclear weapons and materials in both Iran and N.Korea is equally worrisome to me for that reason. And a lot rides on the Bush Administration as to whether or not one of those countries emerges as the dominant threat.




He did no such thing. Who told you that tripe? NewsMax?




Please tell me you're joking here. I echo Munko's sentiment on this --- Is that your solution? NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION?

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Yo, how can I get me one o' them White House press pass thingies?!

That would be quite interesting, with both sides using F-14s.

Maybe we shouldn't have sold them those 80 Tomcats.. Blowback, funny how things comeback and bite you on the ass.

Good deal for the arms dealers though. Sell weapons to both sides... profits out the yazoo

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"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission!" -Capt. Zapp Branigan
The United Church of the Latter Day Tangential Tarts

A sword does not the warrior make. They can possess these things but that does not mean they are as well trained to use them and it does not mean that they have a more advanced arsenal overall.

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lambaste me not

Thats for sure.

But it would still be interesting. Would have been even more interesting if Iran took delivery of those 100 F-16s they ordered.

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"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission!" -Capt. Zapp Branigan
The United Church of the Latter Day Tangential Tarts

I don't imagine very many Iranian F-14's would still be flying without access to spare parts for so long.

From: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...n/airforce.htm

I'm thinking around 2 dozen operational Iranian F-14s right now. It's a great radar platform so even without all the bells & whistles, it's still an awesome AWACS type plane.

Spare parts..yeah, that is a problem for the Iranian airforce. Although the bulk of the Iranian F-14s have been cannibalized for parts and that arms-for-hostages and Iran-contra deals from the 1980s got them some critical spares. Also keep in mind the Iran shared those F-14s with the Soviets/Russia.. who knows what kind of goodies they came up with.



PS
No one ever lost a war over-estimating the enemy. Under-estimating the enemy... now that can get you in trouble

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"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission!" -Capt. Zapp Branigan
The United Church of the Latter Day Tangential Tarts

Glowdog, on our own soil, or any of our embassies or ships. Clinton did nothing for our military but cut funds. Oh yes, he did do something, he instituted the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy.

by terrorist under Clinton's watch and he did nothing. In 1994 he instituted an unenforceable agreement with N. Korea to stop making nuclear weapons.
Much to his surprise and the rest of the world, N.Korea tested a ballistic missile in 1998.

Sleepy, did you miss the part where I "conceded" that Clinton had been a failure?

Did you miss the part where I asked you what Bush has done. Pre- and post-9/11?

Answer the questions.

__________________
Yo, how can I get me one o' them White House press pass thingies?!