Jesus is dead. He died thousands of years ago. It is not his fault that people are so F'd up that they feel the need to misinterpret his teachings as an excuse to foster bigotry, greed and avarice. I think that is the domaine of the human animal.

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Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum
(To such heights of evil are men driven by religion)

I think there is a flaw in the argument of failed leadership. In my opinion leadership doesnt and shouldnt end with the demise of the leader.[/quote]

I agree you cant say he only had twelve disciples when so many remain. Your idea is merely based on the assumption that Jesus ceased to exist. Remember he did die came back to life and was witnessed how many unwritten disciples did he create that day thus ushering in a movement. He was very successful. the point of his teaching was to reach everbody but he knew everyone would not be reached so he had to minimize his teaching because if he didnt the people who would only hate it would only hender the growth the success of his leadership. Remember he tried talking to the masses and the masses put him on a cross. He led they learned they expanded.

The things he gets credit for doing were all ordained long before he was born. His people were waiting for a messiah and I believe it was only after he died that he was creditied with the miracles he's famous for today. Which, by the way, were also required for emperors of the day before they could be known as living gods. Imo, nothing about his life was more exceptional than any moderrn saint whose supernatural deeds are entirely subjective. He just happended to be the one drafted for the job after the fact.

prove jesus walked the earth, then we will talk about his failures as the savior of mankind....except jews....they dont see him as the savior of man... thereby doomed to not enter the hebrew heaven...yet god has chosen them as the master race... the bible says to support israel, yet israel breaks the golden rule about excepting jesus as the savior of man...yet the 3rd/last heaven that will be built, god is going to write in gold on the gates of heaven, the 12 tribes of israel...the chosen race that REJECTS gods son/sun, sent to earth to save the very beings that his father turned into a snake and set up a hungry woman in order to create a "hell" to have his closest friend control, after there was an atempted coud'tah to control heaven...


makes perfect sense.

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Do your part to support israel, israel is NOT to be discussed.

People were not waiting for a messiah God told them one was coming. What you suggest almost sounds as if anyone can do it. But even if Jesus was merely a Emperor or prince he still suffered for his people. The decision was always his to make. He could have chosen to curse his father as many men have done. God did not control his son he merely asked of his son this is proven when Jesus ask his father a question on the cross. So the one drafted was the only one who was taught its possible not to sin and then God gave us someone in the world or something in this world to aspire to be other than a prince of riches.

You talk like one of his believers who are not willing or able to take an objective, dispassionate view of his life and times.

"Dear Lord, save me from your followers. Amen."

Jesus wasn't a leader, he was a teacher. He opened a door for us, but in the end, we choose how to walk through it, if we do at all.

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what door? is there a talking snake in the doorway?

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Do your part to support israel, israel is NOT to be discussed.

It's a metaphor.

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