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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2005, 08:58 AM
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i wish i could. vote at least and not just for a pupet who i know will mislead me. so the answer is DIRECT DEMOCRACY - those who want to vote, can vote, but aparently you like hypocritical democracy
You dont have to vote for anyone you consider a puppet. You can even vote for yourself if you want.

Your argument seems to be that it can only be a "real" democracy if people vote the way you want them to. You are wrong.

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Me: We are fully democratic...we have no slaves or vassal states. We do not conquor other nations with the intent of enslaving them.

fully democratic?
Yes. Fully democratic.

Quote:
de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.
4. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=democracy
No need to thank me.

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LOL read above.... no slaves?
No slaves. Please post evidence to the contrary.

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LOL what do you call iraqi people who can only get a job joining the military? free men?
Um...yeah. Are they being forced to work for the military?

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they reject courts Claiming tobe christian, yet refusing Saddam Husseins offer before the war to go one on one to save all american lives.
You get to define what Christianity is now too? heh heh

What leads you to believe we should take Saddam's word seriously when he lied so many times before?

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Me: Probably because you are making it up

... NO, absolutely NOT.
If you say so. Your word doesnt count as evidence.

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probably because the real intent was not to get rid of the old friend (1980s) but to invade a country, therefor 1 on 1 duel would not achieve anything they really want.
Or because the offer was never made. Or was just (yet another) attempt at delay.

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majority of americans did not vote
They had the option of putting Bush out of office. They chose not to.

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LOL. got u, a GENIUS. ok.good thing i asked, now we all know bush is a genius. thanks for being straight forward: bush can not put his life in danger to save all his beloved americans because he is too important of a genius.
Glad to see you are finally getting it.
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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2005, 09:26 AM
rikitz rikitz is offline
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Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior";p=&quot View Post
Your argument seems to be that it can only be a "real" democracy if people vote the way you want them to. You are wrong.
you're making an argument and correcting me again. classic in politics, but an old trick.

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We are fully democratic...we have no slaves or vassal states. We do not conquor other nations with the intent of enslaving them.
u missed the word "pretend"
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No slaves. Please post evidence to the contrary.
do u have evidence that kim jong il or saddam had sex with a virgin or is it just sources telling you? WMD's, terrorist threat, nuclear bomb purchase, discussion with aliens, eating live lobster out of paper plate, hitler killing jews, you have any evidence of any of these things or just sources telling you? coz a lot of your sources are inconsistent

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Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior";p=&quot View Post
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LOL what do you call iraqi people who can only get a job joining the military? free men?
Um...yeah. Are they being forced to work for the military?
and if someone will lock you in a cell and all you have to eat are your own droppings, i will say you eat it coz you enjoy it, right? no one forced you. anyway, in a way you are right though coz there is no draft yet, but offering money to the poor for fighting makes you only half right.

about not voting
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They had the option of putting Bush out of office. They chose not to.
remember who their second choice was.

now about Saddams Duel offer to save all the lives, you don't want to believe me or Saddam, i understand you only want to believe whats convenient, and you are on the side of those who hold power and media so i can not argue with you, but your time will come. that i can assure you.
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2005, 10:20 AM
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Q: How can communism be achieved in the US?
A: Unity of the working class will be needed. Workers will have to realize that capitalism cannot solve the problems it creates and that it is only beneficial to the few who own the factories, mines, press and government. Hopefully, we will achieve this in the voting booth; but if the capitalists attack, we will defend ourselves and our system.
Suppose the masses dont agree with you?

It seems your system is dead before it can begin. What does Communism give them that they dont already have?

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Q: Can people decide what job they want in communist countries?
A: Yes, and better than under capitalism. Now, you get a job based on the education you receive, and the people you know: poor education + bad connections = a poor job, generally. Communism will allow people who have aptitudes for certain work the education--for free--to learn the skills it takes to do that work.
You do not believe people will get preferrential treatment in a communist system? If so, why?

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Q: Why would anyone be motivated to work hard under communism? If you work harder, shouldn't you get more?
A: People can learn to be motivated by working for the common good. If we help each other, we both gain. Capitalism encourages us to fight against each other for crumbs, while the very few stuff themselves on the pie.
If I get the same benefits whether I work or not, why should I work? What if I dont care about the common good and just want to sit on my ass all day?

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Q: Why don't you like democracy, why is communism better?
A: Democracy and communism are not opposites. Communists believe in TRUE democracy, as opposed to our "bourgeois democracy." What that means is when you only get to choose between millionaires running for election, working class people (the vast majority of society) aren't really represented. Elections in a capitalist system are almost always decided by who can get the most corporate money. True democracy will be realized under communism because everyone will have an equal say in society.
So the masses should not even have the option of voting for a "bourgeois" representative?

Suppose someone has no opinion? Should they be forced to vote anyway? Does everyone get absolutely equal exposure (advertising)? If so, how is this determined?

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Q: The world has never been fair, so how can the communists make it fair?
A: Fairness is a function of how wealth is distributed. Under capitalism, workers receive only a small percentage of the wealth that they create. Under socialism, workers receive a larger share. Under communism, workers (all people) will receive everything.
Under communism, workers do not necesarily receive what they are worth. Is the laborer worth the same as a manager, even though his work is physically harder? What about the person who chooses not to work or refuses to work to his/her potential? Who determines what labor is worth?

Even if we assume that the "workers" receive everything, that is still not necessarily fair. Right?

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Q: What would be the benefits of socialism in the US?
A: Just to name a few there would be jobs for all at living wages, full equality and an end to racism, sexism and homophobia, health care for all, a right to a clean healthy environment, equal rights for immigrant workers, free public education form nursery to university, peace and solidarity.
If some of the workers dont think the system is fair, how can there be solidarity? Who gets to determine what is taught in the schools?

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Q: Is socialism inevitable?
A: If the human race is to survive--yes, it is.
You dont know that...The US is the most powerful/wealthiest/technologically advanced nation that has ever existed, and it is not socialist or communist.

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For example, the capitalists want to pay workers less and less so they can have more and more for themselves.
That is not true. The standard of living is increasing, not decreasing. Would you rather live in America now or the America in 1950? Things are getting better, not worse.

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But when the workers have less, they can buy less, which means the capitalist end up with less as a result.
No, because Capitalism encourages creativity and give an incentive to produce. That is why commie nations are always going to be poor compared to capitalist nations. Capitalist nations advance faster.

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Q: How can you have communism and still have individual freedom?
A: By limiting bureaucracy, establishing human-rights laws (the CPUSA and YCL have always advocated bill-of-rights socialism), and reminding all workers that they need to remain involved in union and civic activities.
By limit bureaucracy how? What if the masses choose to add to the bureaucracy? Should they be allowed to?

Who gets to decide who is included in your human rights? Pedophiles, for example, feel oppressed right now. Would you include them? If not, why?

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Q: How free are the people in communist countries? What kind of rights do they have? Can they think for themselves and make their own choices?
A: These things vary according to each socialist country. Generally, no one has the right to become wealthy or spread capitalistic propaganda. In capitalist countries, we have only illusions of freedom and democracy because the media is owned by only a few corporations and the political campaigns are financed by the billionaires.
But unlike commie countries, we also have a choice. We can turn against the media and the corporations any time we want. On a whim. Commie slaves dont have that option.

We can vote for whoever we want. Under your system, we seem to be able to vote only for "approved" candidates. Who approves them though?

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Q: How can people get ahead in a communist country?
A: Ahead of whom?
Ahead of the people who are doing less work but getting the same benefit as me. Is my labor worth the same no matter how much effort I put forth?
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2005, 10:37 AM
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Me: Your argument seems to be that it can only be a "real" democracy if people vote the way you want them to. You are wrong.

you're making an argument and correcting me again. classic in politics, but an old trick.
If you say so. That is how your argument appears to me. You are pouting because the masses wont vote for people you consider competent. Therefore, it isnt a "real" democracy.

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Me: We are fully democratic...we have no slaves or vassal states. We do not conquor other nations with the intent of enslaving them.

u missed the word "pretend"
Yeah, you keep saying that, but then wont offer any evidence. Your opinion doesnt count as evidence.

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do u have evidence that kim jong il or saddam had sex with a virgin or is it just sources telling you?
I wouldnt assume it was true unless I saw evidence supporting it. They might have...but I dont really know that.

By contrast, you are proclaiming it as "obvious" and therefore true. Even though it is simply a guess on your part.

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WMD's, terrorist threat, nuclear bomb purchase, discussion with aliens, eating live lobster out of paper plate, hitler killing jews, you have any evidence of any of these things or just sources telling you?
I have already admitted to a double standard. Saddam was guilty by default. It was up to him to convince us that he did not have WMDs and was not trying to get them. We were not convinced because he continually interfered with inspections. Had he cooperated, we would not have invaded.

Repeat that to yourself to make sure you get it: "Double standard". Saddam's Iraq does not = Canada or Japan or Brazil. He was guilty by default.

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and if someone will lock you in a cell and all you have to eat are your own droppings, i will say you eat it coz you enjoy it, right?
Thats just it...I would be "locked" in. They are not locked in. Your analogy is inaccurate.

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no one forced you.
They did force me. They locked me in.

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anyway, in a way you are right though coz there is no draft yet
Even if there was, only our representatives could enact it. And we elect our representatives.

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but offering money to the poor for fighting makes you only half right
The poor have alternatives....they do not have to join the military. You attempt to make it sound like they have nop choice, but they do have choices. It's just that the alternatives are worse.

Welcome to the real world. I would like to make a million dollars a year...but that isnt an option for me. My current job is my best alternative. Am I enslaved too?

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remember who their second choice was.
They could have rejected the 2nd choice too. My ballot alone had a dozen options on it for President when I voted...and you can always write-in another candidate if you want.

The alternatives were there.

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now about Saddams Duel offer to save all the lives, you don't want to believe me or Saddam, i understand you only want to believe whats convenient, and you are on the side of those who hold power and media so i can not argue with you, but your time will come. that i can assure you.
Yeah, I'll be sure to hold my breath.
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2005, 11:04 AM
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Default ok

im tired of arguing with you, some points u make me laugh, some points u make some sense. bottom line is it's a screwed up place. let me join u on this:
Quote:
If I get the same benefits whether I work or not, why should I work? What if I dont care about the common good and just want to sit on my ass all day?
i would like an answer for that one myself also.[/quote]
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2005, 10:00 PM
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Default Here my 2 cents...

I think communism is in itself a wonderfull idea, a place where everyone works for the common good, no citizen is more important than the other.
But the problem is that past failures and extreme egos of the likes of stalin have tarnished people's perception of Communism, especially here in America, because of US jornalism always putting down Communism and saying that if you like that you are unamerican, you stand with the enemy. that is untrue. Communism should be given a chance in America, but unfortunately it will not.
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 07:09 AM
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Why should communism be given a chance?

Why are we obligated to bother? Why would the masses willingly surrender their power?

It makes no sense. You might as well ask "Why cant Americans just elect a King for life? I know Kings in the past have made mistakes, but thats only because they didnt run their kingdoms right. It will be different this time! I Promise!"
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior";p=&quot View Post
Why should communism be given a chance?

Why are we obligated to bother? Why would the masses willingly surrender their power?

It makes no sense. You might as well ask "Why cant Americans just elect a King for life? I know Kings in the past have made mistakes, but thats only because they didnt run their kingdoms right. It will be different this time! I Promise!"
and dictators and puppets such as bush havent made mistakes?
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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 08:26 AM
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Bush is elected. Therefore he is not a dictator. Ridiculous hyperbole like this is why no one takes conspiracy nuts seriously.

If he is a puppet I dont care, because the puppet master is making the decisions I would want him to make anyway. The end result is the same.
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  #160 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2005, 10:09 AM
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the end result is you dont care, coz i never called bush a dictator. and if u don't care, i wonder why u even waste time talking, perhaps coz you're bored like me. fine. as long as we understand that you don't care.
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