I've been told that if I don't love America that I should get out. I do love our country and I'd do anything to help it but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the Federal government, it stops right there because when it comes to our government their nothing but a bunch of criminals. Their nothing but killers, rapists, and thieves. This war is wrong and nothing can be said to change that. If were their to free the Iraqi people then why are we bombing them and shooting them; why are we invading their homes at night and abusing them in prisons. They don't want us there and we shouldn't be there. They don't tell us how many soldiers are really dying and how many are injured. They give the numbers as if they weren't humans. Injury means having your legs blown off or shrapnel cutting through your eyes. A lot of you say, "but what can we do". You can disagree and you can say its not right. People are dying for nothing. Fathers, sons, brothers, sisters, and maybe someday one of you. Its easy for the White House to start wars because they know they'll never have to fight in them and that they'll retire and get a check for the rest of their lives. They don't care if the injured get paid or how many die. All it is for them is another day for another dollar.

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“Capitalism cannot reform itself; it is doomed to self-destruction. No universal selfishness can bring social good to all.” —Dr. W.E.B. Du Bois

You dont have to get out, but it is kinda hypocritical to pay taxes to support a government you consider immoral. If I really throught the ideology of my government was immoral, I would be gone.

Why would you want your labor to go towards something you hate? It makes no sense.

Why would you willingly support a bunch of criminals? By staying here and paying taxes...by buying American products and using American services...thats exactly what you're doing.

Your implication is that we are doing so deliberatly. In reality, we are only invading the homes of people we believe to be involved with the insurgents; you know, the people who want to bring oppression BACK to Iraq.

When I was a commie liberal back in the day, I never would have supported someone I really considered a despot, even as much as I didnt like America. I dont get how modern day liberals can do that.

Who are "they"? How do you know they dont want us there?

"They" would not appear to be most Iraqis:

Most want us to stay, not leave. A few other stats I found:

Keep in mind, this is a liberal-friendly source. This isnt Fox news. CNN has been consistently against the war, and yet even they are showing, at worst, a very large minority support US action and our presence in Iraq (between 1/3 and 1/2).

That one was from 2004 though. What about today? I found a more recent USA Today poll. Reconstruction is not complete, and they dont even have a Constitution yet, but the results already run counter to your assumptions:

That last question especially flies in the face of all your assumptions...and is consistent with all the other polls I've seen.

Do you have any data that conflicts with these results? Or is it just projection on your part? All of this in spite of what is, IMO, very biased anti-US media they are being fed.

But I'd be lying if I said that. The alternatives were worse...even the Iraqis believe that according to this poll data.

No they are not. They are dying to ensure freedom for future generations of Iraqis. They are dying to remove a sadistic despot. They are dying to protect American security. They are dying to deny terrorists a friendly base of operations.

Those people are soldiers by choice. And all the polls I have seen show support within the military is actually higher than support in the civilian sector...how do you explain that? If they think it is worth it, why dont you?

No, it is not easy for the white house to start wars. Contrary to how the laws may work in whatever fanatasy world you live in, in this world, the President cannot do something like this without cooperation from Congress. And Congress will not do it without popular support.

Face it, you and people like you are simply in the minority. No one was tricked or coerced (unless you want to count yourself being tricked by your own delusions).

The white house and congress ARE at risk; they want to be re-elected, and if they dont do what the masses want, they'll be ejected from office. Bush could NOT have done any of this without Congress's approval...period.

Dont you get it Sadistic-Savior, Iraq was wonderful under Saddam. We came and started the torture, bombings, and rape(?) of innocent civilians. Saddam was moral and worthy, you know he never:
Bombed his own country with mustard gas,
or had torture chambers where tens of thousands were killed,
or locked random women in windowless closets for random rapping's.
However we are, and we intentionally target "the Iraqi people"
YEAH Saddam was great you just dont know it yet. The US is the real enemy

1,500,000- the # of innocent civilians that saddam had killed in his own country. IS THAT NUMBER NOT HUMAN ENOUGH 4 U???

MY GOOD FRIEND WHO LIVES ACROSS THE STREET FROM ME JUST GOT HOME FROM IRAQ HE TALKED OF 1ST HAND ACCOUNTS OF IRAQ CITIZENS THANKING HIM AND GETTING TRASHED OFF THE LIQUOR THAT THEY GAVE TO HIM AS A GIFT. HE SAW THE MASS GRAVES AND RISKS HIS LIFE FOR THE FREEDOM OF PEOPLE HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW. FOR YOU TO SAY THAT HE IS A PART OF A BUNCH of "killers, rapists, and thieves" ROYALLY PISSES ME THE (*)(*)(*)(*) OFF

What was Bush supposed to do sit back? Let them die at the hands of their dictator?
SO PLEASE COMMIE, STFU

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Yes, I am a mindless, Brainwashed, robot,
AKA an American Infantryman.
Yet somehow I think for myself.....

I havnt seen Schwarzwald post since I posted my response in this thread. I think we can consider him pwned.

Im not saying Saddam was good all I'm saying is there were better ways we could've handled it. Also the poles that Sadistic Saviour was refering to were at the beggining of the war before we found out Iraq had no weapons and they were done by Americand not Iraqis. I know Iraq wants us gone because thats why their attacking us. Suppose (hypothetically) America was invaded and occupied just like Iraq; wouldnt we take the same actions as the insurgents and fight back against the invaders?

__________________
“Capitalism cannot reform itself; it is doomed to self-destruction. No universal selfishness can bring social good to all.” —Dr. W.E.B. Du Bois

You dont have a very consistent opinion on the war.
We supported him bombing his own people with gas.
We gave him the gas to kill Iranians.
The CIA even helped him get into power so he could whipe out the left wing of the Baathist party and suppress all dissent.

Saddam was no angel. But he wasnt doing jack when we went in there.
You want to talk abot rape rooms? What about Saudi Arabia? Mass graves? MILLIONS of people have died in Sudan over the past 2 years, and what did our government JUST DO about a month ago? ALLY WITH THE SAME F ING PEOPLE THAT ARE FUNDING THE MILITIAS THAT ARE SLAUGHTERING INNOCENT PEOPLE.

The pentagon's post invasion report finally found that Saddam actually DID disarm when asked to by the UN. He destroyed all the WMD's he had at the time, and complied with the regulations. If you google it, im sure you can find it.

There was absolutely no righteous reason why we went into Iraq.
This new government of theirs is a smokescreen. They have no control over anything. I spoke to an infatryman last week who's job it was to train to Iraqi security force, and said that these people are worhtless, that they dont care about their job, that they dont know how to fire their weapons or even execute basic combat maneuvers, and that they are so ridiculous that when given the job to guard a checkpoint, they will even go home as soon as it starts raining.
You have to realize that the society and mindset of the Middle East is nowhere near what it is in America. The population is extremely uneducated, and they dont have the same moral and societal structure that we have.
You cant turn an Iraqi into an American.
They dont have it as well of as you and I do, so they dont have the luxury of spending lots of time wondering what kind of government they want or who they want running it. Joe six pack in Iraq probably has an extremely low paying, or no, job, can barely feed his family, and will do absolutely anything to survive. Put any animal in a situation where their only priority is survival, they will do absolutely anything to achieve that all. Morality means nothing when all youre trying to do is survive.

Civilians will build bombs for insurgents their for a thousand dollars. Why? because that much money is more than what they would make in 2 years, and they cant afford to turn that down. Do they care who it harms or who is going to use it? NO. They care about providing for their families, and they care about how much bread and food they can buy with that money.


We take down despots and build up new ones when it suits us. Our government has absolutely no interest in the well being of other countries (Unless its Israel of course) We do things for our own benefit, and thats it. Thats what happens when you live in an ultra-nationalistic mindset that we in America live in today. According to society, there is America, and the rest of the world.

And if you look at the REAL numbers of how many people killed in his 15 years of terror, its more like 250 thousand. Not 1.5 million.
And the estimates that human rights organizations are giving about how many civillians have been killed in our time there, its almost 100 thousand.
15 years compared to 2 or so years.

We arent much better.

We in this country are indoctrinated from birth that our way of life is the best way of life ever, and that everyone else should be so lucky to live like we do, think like we do, and worship the God that we do.
Sorry to say, but we are not righteous. What we are doing is NOT because of sympathy for the Iraqi population. We care about our interests, and that is all we have ever cared about. Its pretty simple. Maintaining and enhancing our power in the world is always number one. It is for any superpower. Its always been this way, and until people can see how self destructive this vicious cycle of superpowers rising and falling, we are fuxxored.

Thats is all.

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www.contraweb.tk
.: Digital Activism for the New Millenium :.

And there we go tossing about 'Sadaam gassing' the Kurds (lest we forget, lest we forget); and who was it, alone on the UN Security Council that pointedly abstained from condemnation of the slaughter?

Anyone?

We are the ones with the Weapons of Mass Murder, dont ya know.

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"A man's work is nothing but this slow trek to rediscover, through the detours of art, those two or three great and simple images in whose presence his heart first opened."

The latter poll is dated May 2005! The text says it was condicted Early April/Late March. This was not from the beginning of the war.

Do you have any data that contradicts this information? If so, present it. If not, what makes you think their feelings have changed, even assuming you are correct?

You are assuming things you dont know. You're not there, and you dont know how they feel. Like most liberals, you dont bother to ask the masses anything...you just assume you know whats best for them.

A tiny tiny percentage wants us gone. Saddam is an Iraqi...if he was the only one that wanted us gone, would you still assume that they ALL want us gone?

Whats your evidence that the insurgents represent a majority of the Iraqi population?

Irrelevant, even if true. That fact does not make it wrong to remove him.

Ah...so all he has to do to absolve himself in your eyes is to stop for the moment. Pity we dont extend the same courtesy to criminals in America eh?

He was manipulating you, and people like you.

Irrelevant even if true. None of that absolves Saddam, or means that we should not have invaded him.

I agree we should not be allied with them. That doesnt absolve Saddam, or mean that we should not have invaded him.

Irrelevant even if true. We were not obligated to take his word for it. The ultimatum wasnt "Let us inspect you, but only when you feel like it".

I could not find a reference in Google, and I have heard contradicting claims on this forum.

I disagree. He continuously refused to comply with our demands. We were correct, even in hindsight, not to trust him. The inspections were meant to assure us that he was not trying to get, or did not already posess, WMDs.

Not to mention all the other UN resolutions he ignored that has nothing to do with the WMDs...

And you know this because...?

Give me an example of a decision the new government wanted to make, but that the US prevented them from making. One.

Do you have any objective evidence that this is widespread? How do you know his experience is the norm?

Yeah, because they are so primitive and animalistic that they cant handle democracy...is that your argument?

Whats their alternative? Another dictator?

I've posted evidence supporting my opinion...all you people seem to be posting is your assumptions, or bits and pieces that you've heard from isolated sources.

I'll be sure to hold my breath while you post evidence to support your assumption...

A naive and myopic view. You assume that the goals must be mutually exclusive...that it is not possible to care about our goals and their welfare at the same time. That is ridiculous.

Our survival is their survival. It is in both our best intrerests that despots lose power in the world.

So you support the removal of Bush from power?

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"Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it. " --Noam Chomsky

Its the law to pay taxes. If you don't pay them, you're breaking the law. - I guess you thought Bill Clinton was moral since you didn't leave. Where would you go anyway? The moon?
Personally, I think its better to stay and fight for what you believe in regardless of what the pushy, domineering, all so saintly, my way or the highway thought process of the rethuglican party.

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I've been informed....don't blame Bush, he's "not in control"
That must make him out of control