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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2005, 06:09 AM
imeanseriously
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Default is this really even a question?

OF COURSE SUCCESS IN IRAQ! Are any of you Americans out there?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2005, 06:20 AM
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Default Here's the problem:

My views on the war have no connection with Bush's poll numbers. If the Iraq war ultimately goes well and Bush gets credit, I'm fine with it. He would have earned it. One must give kudos where they are due. The same applies in the reverse, however. As for my personal wishes, I just want as many troops to come home safely as possible.
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Old 07-07-2005, 07:58 AM
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How do you Americans can believe that the world will be better after the US have invaded and destroyed an entire country without respecting any international law?
There is one less despotic nation in the world. There is one less threat to us. There are millions of people that are free now that were not free before.

Thats how.

Quote:
The world is going totally WORST than it was 5 years ago.
The world was better with Saddam in power in IRaq in your opinion? The Iraqi masses dont seem to agree with you, according to the polls available.

Quote:
To win does it mean to control the OIL resources? Does it mean exterminate the Arabs?
In America, we are less inclined to define people by their race than foreign cultures are. We can differentiate between normal arabs and terrorists/despots.

Iraq provided a tiny fraction of our Oil...Even Mexico produces more oil than Iraq.

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How do you expect to be safe when you invade the other's countries, destroy everything, from buildings to institutions, killing innocent people and creating hate and chaos?
If you take away your enemy's club, he has one less thing to beat you with.

The hate and chaos is not eprmanent. There was hate and chaos after WWII also...where are Germany and Japan now? Things change. We will assimilate them eventually.

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But coming back to the point, I think whatever it happens in Iraq from here to the elections, Bush will always be able to control the general public opinion, since he controls all the media in the US.
What points of view do we not have access to?

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An end to the war=success in Iraq.
Once we get our way, the war will end. Success! (right?)

Quote:
My views on the war have no connection with Bush's poll numbers. If the Iraq war ultimately goes well and Bush gets credit, I'm fine with it. He would have earned it. One must give kudos where they are due. The same applies in the reverse, however. As for my personal wishes, I just want as many troops to come home safely as possible.
Bush alone shouldnt get the credit, because the decision was shared and supported by Congress. The war could not have happened without their cooperation.
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Old 07-07-2005, 08:15 AM
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Default As he is able to send troops anywhere he wants,

it certainly could take place without Congress. Many conflicts have, in fact. True, it would have been harder to get ther sheeple to go along, but he does not need Congress to send troops into battle. So he will get nearly all the blame or praise.
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Old 07-07-2005, 09:00 AM
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As he is able to send troops anywhere he wants it certainly could take place without Congress. Many conflicts have, in fact.
The President is not a King. There is a limit on what he can do without Congressional approval.

Give me an example of a war comeprable to Iraq that was waged against the wishes of Congress.

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True, it would have been harder to get ther sheeple to go along
No, it would have been impossible.

By calling them "sheeple" you are trying to absolve them of responsibility. No, they were not mind controlled.

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but he does not need Congress to send troops into battle
The war could not have been waged without Congress's cooperation. Period. The President is not a King, no matter how much you'd like to pretend he is so you can assign blame.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2005, 12:41 PM
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Default you may want to check your Constitution!

It's in black and white, clear as day. The President could wage WWII without approval (he'd have to call it a "conflict"). Check it out. It can be found on-line. He can send troops ANYWHERE for ANY PURPOSE. He may pay the price, but he sure as hell can do it. Want a quick history lesson?

In the Korean War, Truman established the new precedent by going to war without seeking Congressional approval. This precedent was followed by both Johnson and Nixon, who, claiming their war-making authority rested on their power as commanders in chief, refused to ask Congress for approval to wage war in Vietnam. So two major wars were fought without Congressional approval in the form of an official declaration!

History is great! Even Congress talked about it in regard to Kosovo. Want to see the document?

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/co...9/cr031799.htm

You were way off on this one. Bush needed Congress like a chicken needs a chainsaw.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2005, 01:12 PM
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Found this via a casual google search:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael C Dorf
It has long been recognized that, even absent a formal declaration of war, the President may, on his own authority, use military force to carry out the Congressionally delegated power to "suppress insurrections and repel invasions." Thus, for example, in The Prize Cases the Supreme Court upheld President Lincoln's Civil War blockade of southern ports. And no one doubts that in the event of an actual attack on the United States, the President can and should use military force even if there is insufficient time to seek Congressional approval.

How long does an emergency response last? In 1973, Congress adopted the War Powers Resolution in an effort to strengthen its hand vis-a-vis the President. The Resolution was enacted in response to the perception that U.S. military involvement in Vietnam escalated without proper Congressional approval.

The War Powers Resolution authorizes Presidential use of force only in a narrow range of circumstances. Moreover, it obliges the President to report to Congress within 48 hours of deploying troops, and to obtain specific Congressional approval for continued deployment within sixty days.


http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20020306.html
(Emphasis mine) - I honestly don't know if he ever obtained approval within 60 days. But in hindsight, it doesnt matter since Congress voted to delegate the authority to him anyway.

Either way, it is clear that legally, Congress could have stopped it if they had wanted to. The President does not have absolute military powers beyond emergency uses.

Direct source for the Act - http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/caseco...rs/33/toc.html
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-07-2005, 02:00 PM
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Default I am aware of the War Powers Act.

But there is one small thing left out here: Presidents pretty much have taken the position that the ACT itself is unconstitutional and routinely ignore it. Here's a better link. It's a history of the act and an analysis of it done for Congress.

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32267.html
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Old 07-07-2005, 07:47 PM
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But there is one small thing left out here: Presidents pretty much have taken the position that the ACT itself is unconstitutional and routinely ignore it.
Umm...so? Has it ever been challenged by one of them?

What does their belief have to do with what's legal? They (The Presidents) dont get to decide that...the Judicial branch does. As of right now, yes, Congress has the final say in war. The President, legally, has short term war powers. Thats it.

Congress chose not to exercise this power. Actually, they went a step further, and officially delegated their authority on this matter to Bush...by their own choice.

Your claim that Congress had no power to prevent the second Gulf War is wrong. They did have power, but chose not to use it.

I read the FAS link, but feel like I wasted my time because it tells me nothing new. Just minutia on what I already read in the first link (FYI...this is why I b:tch at people for not summarizing links...it's your point you're trying to make, so dont make us do your footwork).

Explain to me where in your FAS link it states (or implies) that Congress cannot stop a President from continuing a war after the 60-90 day period expires, or how a President can circumvent this limitation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FAS.Org
Automatic Withdrawal Provision

The automatic withdrawal provision has become perhaps the most controversial provision of the War Powers Resolution. Section 5(b) requires the President to withdraw U.S. forces from hostilities within 60-90 days after a report is submitted or required to be submitted under section 4(a)(1). The triggering of the time limit has been a major factor in the reluctance of Presidents to report, or Congress to insist upon a report, under section 4(a)(1).

Drafters of the War Powers Resolution included a time limit to provide some teeth for Congress, in the event a President assumed a power to act from provisions of resolutions, treaties, or the Constitution which did not constitute an explicit authorization. The Senate report called the time limit "the heart and core" of the bill that "represents, in an historic sense, a restoration of the constitutional balance which has been distorted by practice in our history and, climatically, in recent decades." (19) The House report emphasized that the Resolution did not grant the President any new authority or any freedom of action during the time limits that he did not already have.

Administration officials have objected that the provision would require the withdrawal of U.S. forces simply because of congressional inaction during an arbitrary period. Since the resolution recognizes that the President has independent authority to use armed forces in certain circumstances, they state, "on what basis can Congress seek to terminate such independent authority by the mere passage of time?" (20) In addition, they argue, the imposition of a deadline interferes with successful action, signals a divided nation and lack of resolve, gives the enemy a basis for hoping that the President will be forced by domestic opponents to stop an action, and increases risk to U.S. forces in the field. The issue has not been dealt with by the courts.


http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32267.html#_1_14
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernspin";p=&quot View Post
How do you Americans can believe that the world will be better after the US have invaded and destroyed an entire country without respecting any international law? The world is going totally WORST than it was 5 years ago.
This war is ALREADY lost, since its beginning.
I don't understand HOW this war can be positive on any sense.
Can somebody explain me HOW this shameful war can be WON some day?
To win does it mean to control the OIL resources? Does it mean exterminate the Arabs?
If to win means to be safer as an American citizen so the US is lost.
How do you expect to be safe when you invade the other's countries, destroy everything, from buildings to institutions, killing innocent people and creating hate and chaos?

But coming back to the point, I think whatever it happens in Iraq from here to the elections, Bush will always be able to control the general public opinion, since he controls all the media in the US. When I watch American broadcasted news, for example, I feel bizarre cause I realize how manipulated are the facts to give the impression that this war is nice and fair. The same with the newspapers, radio, internet etc.


I know if I make any personal threats my post will be removed (I hate you moderators) but honesty someone ????? COME ON? DO YOU MODERATORS HAVE A SOUL???? I JUST SWORE TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION AND DEFEND MY COUNTRY NO MATTER WHAT THE COST!! CAN NO ONE SEE THE ENEMY WITHIN!!!!

No the goal isnt to GET OIL hence 2.50 a gal
No the goal isnt to kill Arabs
THE GOAL IS TO GIVE THE IRAQI PEOPLE THERE FREEDOM
at the expense of American men and women (that I am sitting in a room full of) and you disrespect every last one of them with the HERESY you just regurgitated

look at my sig GET IT? OK GET OUT
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