Is it acceptable in the rules to accuse other members of lieing?

Discussion in 'Announcements & Community Discussions' started by DA60, Jan 21, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DA60

    DA60 Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,238
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Even if one provides no proof that one has lied?


    For the record - I would like to know.
     
  2. Leo2

    Leo2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,709
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I don't know about the forum regulations, but I believe it is unacceptable within any civilised discussion to accuse anybody of lying. It is just plain ill mannered and insulting.

    It is also very easy to avoid. One only needs to ask if the other person is sure, and if he persists, one may observe that he might be mistaken, or possibly ill informed. The charge of ignorance is much less offensive than that of mendacity.
     
  3. submarinepainter

    submarinepainter Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    21,596
    Likes Received:
    1,528
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    instead of calling someone a liar one could say I believe you are wrong and here's why! and it is against the rules to call other members names
     
  4. Beevee

    Beevee Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2009
    Messages:
    13,916
    Likes Received:
    146
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It's all according to one's definition of lying.

    If somebody genuinely believe what they write, it's not an intentional lie. You can certainly see plenty of it on this forum, from people who don't check their facts prior to posting them, because they are so convinced that what they have learned has no flaws.
     
  5. DA60

    DA60 Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,238
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I will be more specific:

    Someone typed this:

    'Notice how you contribute nothing to the discussion except poor logic and lies?'

    But when asked - provided no evidence of the lies in question.

    Is this okay according to the rules or not, please?

    I would like to know for future reference.
     
  6. marbro

    marbro New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,581
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I love catching people in lies and calling them on it. Specially when people make false claims about me. The whole conversation can be seen by everyone.

    People hide behind the Internet and make false claims, name calling, and outright lying. It's cowardice and juvinile and anytime folks act like that in public they should be called out on it. Don't let them get away with it.
     
  7. Leo2

    Leo2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,709
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I guess I'm not important enough for people to make up lies about me on the 'net. :mrgreen:
     
  8. marbro

    marbro New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,581
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    0
    lucky you.
     
  9. DA60

    DA60 Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,238
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Can a mod please answer this:

    If someone says:

    'Notice how you contribute nothing to the discussion except poor logic and lies?'

    And does not show any evidence that a lie was made...is this within the rules?
     
  10. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2008
    Messages:
    66,166
    Likes Received:
    349
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You can say that a post is a lie, an opinion is a lie, but you cannot accuse the poster themselves of lying.
     
  11. DA60

    DA60 Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,238
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    63
    So what about this sentence?

    'Notice how you contribute nothing to the discussion except poor logic and lies?'
     
  12. Makedde

    Makedde New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2008
    Messages:
    66,166
    Likes Received:
    349
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Probably that wouldn't be allowed as its personal and directed at the member.

    'Your opinion is bad/poor logic and your evidence is a lie' would be more suited.
     
  13. DA60

    DA60 Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,238
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    63
    That's what I assumed...thank you.
     
  14. ian

    ian New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Messages:
    5,359
    Likes Received:
    52
    Trophy Points:
    0
    go to Bunnings, buy some timber and build a bridge.
     
  15. Falena

    Falena Cherry Bomb Staff Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2009
    Messages:
    25,141
    Likes Received:
    6,724
    Trophy Points:
    113

    That statement is an insult to you personally.

    It is perfectly acceptable to point out the falsehood of someones statements. It is not acceptable to then suggest they are a liar. The noticeable difference being, one example focuses on the statement and the other example focus on the poster.



    Notice how your posts contribute nothing to the discussion except poor logic and misinformed statements or untruths. Something along those lines could have been easily said and more acceptable in respectful debate.
     
  16. DA60

    DA60 Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,238
    Likes Received:
    129
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Thank you very much for the explanation.

    That is more or less, just how I interpreted the rules to be.
     
  17. m81

    m81 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    what about '' your whole race/nation are natural born liars ?
     
  18. GenX1971

    GenX1971 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2010
    Messages:
    298
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    :juggle: In my neck of the woods- it would be acceptable in honest learning to say, "I believe or think -you are mistaken, deceived, or may have lied and contradicted yourself".
    The more experience you gain in this world, the more substance you have to process information you are given. Perspective changes depending where we are at the time.
    In the United States we have been engaged in decade long active war. It does things to people. In the United States (yes, including and perhaps especially the South) we know exactly what this means. The United States has been involved in many wars since her birth some are declared and some are not. Where ever we are in this world we have been born into a time of Necessary Transition.
    To any woman in this world who has ever given birth Transition is a very difficult and painful experience late in the birthing process and just before a new life is welcomed once again on our planet. One could become disoriented, afraid, discouraged, exhausted, or overwhelmed by a litany of factors. Woman or child could die or require intervention of an attendant.
    We must be frank. Birth and life is a miraculous and spiritually beautiful process; but it is also a bloody, arduous, dangerous and demanding event. Both are truths. Misunderstandings, conflicting values, and basic fear can cause catastrophe.
    If we dare to discuss the world we live in at all, take time to educate each other it is the only way we grow or learn anything.
    Try thinking about it this way: If you were an inexperienced mother giving birth and began to panic because you were disoriented about the time of transition and did not know what was happening , would you not want someone to tell you: "STOP! get some self-control or you will die and so will your child!" then explain the details later?

    This thought just as much for me as anyone reading. In expressing it for whoever reads the post, I grasped it finally. It was worth the time.
     
  19. submarinepainter

    submarinepainter Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    21,596
    Likes Received:
    1,528
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    could be flamebait there but would have to read more of the thread
     
  20. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    11,329
    Likes Received:
    235
    Trophy Points:
    63
    One other thing that's probably worth mentioning is that the rule on personal attacks has recently been updated, and now specifically includes in its wording the red bolded section below:

    That is intended to make it clear that it doesn't matter whether a member believes their insult or attack against another member to be 'true', 'fact', 'proven', or whatever - it is still against the rules. This has always been the case, but in the past some members seem to have misunderstood this, and believed that they can insult others as long as they believe their insult to be 'true'. That has never been the case, and the new version of the rule makes that clear, to avoid any such misunderstanding in future.

    It is against the forum rules to call another member a 'liar', even if you believe that the accusation is 'true'.
     
  21. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What I find odd is that calling someone out for lying is not OK, but persistently insulting entire demographics is somehow OK. This is the wrong way around IMO. The latter clearly causes far more issues in terms of having a debate board where people act like adults towards each other.
     
  22. CanadianEye

    CanadianEye Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,086
    Likes Received:
    282
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I don't follow your term demographics.

    It would cease to be a political forum at the point in which a demographic could not be targeted, along the lines of this example. You probably couldn't even field the topic of OWS, as the demographic of "rich people" is hurled with furious insult as a point of cause.

    Same with god/religion. Liberalism, conservatism etc.
     
  23. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    11,329
    Likes Received:
    235
    Trophy Points:
    63
    The important thing to remember (and the rule on Personal Attacks is carefully worded to reflect this) is that whether something is 'truth', 'fact', or 'proven' can very often be subjective - as moderators, we should not be in the business of trying to judge whether an insult directed at a member is 'true' or not. If it's a derogatory comment aimed at another member, it's not allowed - it's as simple as that.

    There is also obviously this rule, relating to that issue:
    We do not restrict the freedom of people to express views that others may find personally 'offensive' in some way, and we do not stop people from insulting politicians, public figures, political groups, etc.. The Personal Attack rule is specific to attacking other forum members, to keep the debate between members 'respectful' (as detailed in the forum's Mission Statement). However, we do not allow posts which are simply extreme abusive rants, threats of violence, and so on against racial or similar groups - that goes beyond the expression of an opinion in a discussive or 'respectful' manner, and is only ever likely 'to elicit emotionally charged responses or personal attacks from others'.

    In the same way as one the Personal Attack rule, whether a particular stated opinion constitutes something 'racist' (or 'bigoted', or whatever) or not can often be a subjective opinion (open to debate and discussion - while members can't call each other 'racists', they can obviously denounce a post as appearing to be 'racism', as long as they do so in compliance with the rules, not simply to inflame the other member, by explaining their view), and it's not for us as moderators to decide whether a viewpoint should be dismissed as 'racist' or not (or even whether 'racist' views are themselves 'right' or 'wrong' - that is a matter for members to debate for themselves, obviously). If it is a discussive and 'respectful' post in the way it is worded, it is allowed, no matter what opinion it may appear to express. If it is simply a nasty and extreme abusive rant against a particular racial (or similar) group, it is considered to be 'flamebait', which is not allowed.
     
  24. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Other political forums I've been a member of would not allow the sweeping and insulting generalisations of groups of people, which is allowed here.
     
  25. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    139
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I know you guys have a large work load, but it's pretty obvious that a small number of people, constantly refer to anyone who is not hard right "Libturds", "*******s" etc.... all the time.

    This rule is not being enforced IMO.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page