Thread: Can a Christian lose their salvation? Or, are there former Christians?

I say no to both questions, based on the Scripture. A Christian cannot lose their salvation, thus it is impossible to become a 'former Christian. I have given Scripture to prove this. Such as Ehp. 2:8 and Matt. 16:13-20 and 1John 2:19

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out,that they might be made manifest that they were no all of us."

If one tells me they used to be a Christian, but are not now, then unless you show in Scripture where and how you lost it, then your experience does not trump the Word of God. I will trust God's Word over your experience.

Quantrill

I have heard it said by an Atheist Catholic that Catholicism is the stickiest religion known to man. There is no escape clause. Even if you were to go and join the Taliban, you would merely become a bad Catholic, but still a Catholic!

Originally Posted by Quantrill

I say no to both questions, based on the Scripture. A Christian cannot lose their salvation, thus it is impossible to become a 'former Christian. I have given Scripture to prove this. Such as Ehp. 2:8 and Matt. 16:13-20 and 1John 2:19

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out,that they might be made manifest that they were no all of us."

If one tells me they used to be a Christian, but are not now, then unless you show in Scripture where and how you lost it, then your experience does not trump the Word of God. I will trust God's Word over your experience.

Quantrill

Quantrill

The Bible strongly supports both views, but it often comes down to how certain passages are interpreted. You have a different take, you said, on passages such as Hebrews 6:4-6. I believe the plain meaning to be clear that no sacrifice remains for those who fall away and I'm also using common sense that such a warning would not be given unless it was needed. But let's look at some of the passages you give.


Ephesians 2:8
New King James Version (NKJV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

I've already heard your argument that if faith is a gift, then salvation was never our doing to begin with. This is very redolant of the Calvinist notion of Irresistable Grace, that God elects some to salvation and they infallibly choose a path of redemption. Free will, they insist, has never been violated, but the result is to the uttermost intransigent. Calvinism has the object of salvation completely impassive. They didn't merit salvation, they didn't accomplish it, they didn't choose it of their own volition, therefore they can never lose it. I'll be circling back to that.

Matthew 16 NKJV
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.”
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Nobody on either side of this issue disagrees that nobody is saved except for an initial act of grace by the Holy Spirit, an extraordinary revelation that we cannot come to ourselves. But in the aforementioned parable of the sower, when the seed is sown it sometimes takes root and it sometimes doesn't because at no point does God violate free will. God want's to be chosen over any alternative with absolutely no cohersion, a lesson driven home at the Garden of Eden. You say that because faith is a gift from God, it cannot be lost because of the frailty of man. I say that freewill at the beginning of the salvation transaction necessarily implies free will after the transaction as well unless it can be demonstrated that God, out of character, decides to override free will.

1Jn 2 NKJV
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

And here is the familiar argument that anyone appearing to have lost their salvation never had it to begin with. But a better way to understand this is in light of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares which teaches us the sad reality that tares will grow up with the wheat in reference to mixed families of believers and unbelievers. The tares don't receive judgement because they might become wheat and to cut people off who are potential converts before they can convert would be wrong. It is therefore an act of mercy that tares are spared until the great harvest.

Which brings us back to Calvinism. Whereas the Calvinist sees divine and sovereign intervention at every step of salvation under the notion that God's will cannot be thwarted, I see the free, unhindered volition of man at every step of salvation, to the very end. Man's decisions do not thwart the will of God because it has always been God's will that man makes his decision uncohersed. Thus predestination becomes God's plan for every person to be saved, but not an impetus for overriding the free will of man in the process. Because God woos man and does not dragoon him into heaven, man retains the right and the ability to forfeit such a gift at any time as well. This is the only consistant position that can be sustained in an argument.

But woe to the man who forsakes such a wonderful gift!

Originally Posted by Quantrill

I say no to both questions, based on the Scripture. A Christian cannot lose their salvation, thus it is impossible to become a 'former Christian. I have given Scripture to prove this. Such as Ehp. 2:8 and Matt. 16:13-20 and 1John 2:19

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out,that they might be made manifest that they were no all of us."

If one tells me they used to be a Christian, but are not now, then unless you show in Scripture where and how you lost it, then your experience does not trump the Word of God. I will trust God's Word over your experience.

Quantrill

"former christians' simply become better people. They regain their ability to think for themselves and are not longer sheeple.

Originally Posted by Quantrill

I say no to both questions, based on the Scripture. A Christian cannot lose their salvation, thus it is impossible to become a 'former Christian. I have given Scripture to prove this. Such as Ehp. 2:8 and Matt. 16:13-20 and 1John 2:19

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out,that they might be made manifest that they were no all of us."

If one tells me they used to be a Christian, but are not now, then unless you show in Scripture where and how you lost it, then your experience does not trump the Word of God. I will trust God's Word over your experience.

Quantrill

This idea is the kind of convenient view that some use to delete ambiguity that challenges deeply held beliefs.
As a former Christian, I know there are former Christians.
I had faith. I lost it.
In fact, there was a great deal of pain involved in the transition because I had a hard time reconciling that God had allowed me to lose my faith-- a bizarre, contradictory thought that would occur from time to time.

It's pretty insulting when people throw out the whole "Anybody who doesn't stay Christian never really had faith anyway" argument. Just like the whole "Atheists know there's a God. They just don't feel like following His rules."
Is it so important to you that you reconcile rather minor implications about faith in your religion that you must insult others by denying their sincerity?
I'm not sure how you think that honors your God. If you actually thought it through all the way, applied it to real people rather than scripture, I think you'd realize it's a rather self-interested rationalization you're making.

Isn't there something in mainstream Christianity about empathy and love over written words. Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to be more a mysterious personal insight than a devotion to black and white words even as they don't fit the grayness of life?

Originally Posted by rstones199

"former christians' simply become better people. They regain their ability to think for themselves and are not longer sheeple.

You're not doing a whole lot to help your cause there.

Originally Posted by JavaBlack

This idea is the kind of convenient view that some use to delete ambiguity that challenges deeply held beliefs.
As a former Christian, I know there are former Christians.
I had faith. I lost it.
In fact, there was a great deal of pain involved in the transition because I had a hard time reconciling that God had allowed me to lose my faith-- a bizarre, contradictory thought that would occur from time to time.

It's pretty insulting when people throw out the whole "Anybody who doesn't stay Christian never really had faith anyway" argument. Just like the whole "Atheists know there's a God. They just don't feel like following His rules."
Is it so important to you that you reconcile rather minor implications about faith in your religion that you must insult others by denying their sincerity?
I'm not sure how you think that honors your God. If you actually thought it through all the way, applied it to real people rather than scripture, I think you'd realize it's a rather self-interested rationalization you're making.

Isn't there something in mainstream Christianity about empathy and love over written words. Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to be more a mysterious personal insight than a devotion to black and white words even as they don't fit the grayness of life?


You're not doing a whole lot to help your cause there.

Heya Javablack,

I do agree it's insulting to say that anyone who lost their salvation never had it to begin with, as if you couldn't make a rational decision for faith and an equally rational decision to reject it. It is very possible, in my view, that your decision is intransigent.

I do, however, hold out hope that because God, in his mercy, has kept us from knowing the future, you might be mistaken and that your departure from faith will one day be seen as a mere hiatus.

St. Augustine (my patron saint) was raised by a godly mother, but in his youth he became an atheist and rejected his upbringing. But his mother never ceased praying for him and Augustine found one day that the faith he thought he was so thoroughly over was still there and he embraced it once again, his conversion so much more profound than anything he had previously known that he became a priest, then a bishop, and one of the Church's greatest contributors to the body of theology.

Neither of us know your future. Sometimes our hearts are like rocks, but water has a myterious way of seeping into the most invisible cracks in rocks and then freezing causing the rock to break up from the inside out. Equally mysterious is the grace the Holy Spirit works in our lives.

Originally Posted by saintmichaeldefendthem

But woe to the man who forsakes such a wonderful gift!

"Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame."

Originally Posted by Incorporeal

"Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame."

It really is a big giant IF. That's why there is so much division on this issue.

Originally Posted by saintmichaeldefendthem

Quantrill

The Bible strongly supports both views, but it often comes down to how certain passages are interpreted. You have a different take, you said, on passages such as Hebrews 6:4-6. I believe the plain meaning to be clear that no sacrifice remains for those who fall away and I'm also using common sense that such a warning would not be given unless it was needed. But let's look at some of the passages you give.


Ephesians 2:8
New King James Version (NKJV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

I've already heard your argument that if faith is a gift, then salvation was never our doing to begin with. This is very redolant of the Calvinist notion of Irresistable Grace, that God elects some to salvation and they infallibly choose a path of redemption. Free will, they insist, has never been violated, but the result is to the uttermost intransigent. Calvinism has the object of salvation completely impassive. They didn't merit salvation, they didn't accomplish it, they didn't choose it of their own volition, therefore they can never lose it. I'll be circling back to that.

Matthew 16 NKJV
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.”
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Nobody on either side of this issue disagrees that nobody is saved except for an initial act of grace by the Holy Spirit, an extraordinary revelation that we cannot come to ourselves. But in the aforementioned parable of the sower, when the seed is sown it sometimes takes root and it sometimes doesn't because at no point does God violate free will. God want's to be chosen over any alternative with absolutely no cohersion, a lesson driven home at the Garden of Eden. You say that because faith is a gift from God, it cannot be lost because of the frailty of man. I say that freewill at the beginning of the salvation transaction necessarily implies free will after the transaction as well unless it can be demonstrated that God, out of character, decides to override free will.

1Jn 2 NKJV
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

And here is the familiar argument that anyone appearing to have lost their salvation never had it to begin with. But a better way to understand this is in light of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares which teaches us the sad reality that tares will grow up with the wheat in reference to mixed families of believers and unbelievers. The tares don't receive judgement because they might become wheat and to cut people off who are potential converts before they can convert would be wrong. It is therefore an act of mercy that tares are spared until the great harvest.

Which brings us back to Calvinism. Whereas the Calvinist sees divine and sovereign intervention at every step of salvation under the notion that God's will cannot be thwarted, I see the free, unhindered volition of man at every step of salvation, to the very end. Man's decisions do not thwart the will of God because it has always been God's will that man makes his decision uncohersed. Thus predestination becomes God's plan for every person to be saved, but not an impetus for overriding the free will of man in the process. Because God woos man and does not dragoon him into heaven, man retains the right and the ability to forfeit such a gift at any time as well. This is the only consistant position that can be sustained in an argument.

But woe to the man who forsakes such a wonderful gift!

I don't see how the Bible can support both views. The Bible can be used to support both, but only one can be correct.

I don't see in Heb. 6 where it speaks of no sacrifice remains. So I won't comment on it until I understand which verses your speaking of. I know there are passages here that seem to say you can lose your salvation, but they don't.

I don't think you presented any argument against Eph.2:8 or Mattl 16, other than say you disagree with it.

I will get back with the others.

Quantrill

Considering the alternative, why would anyone want to give up their Christianity?

People who claim to have been Christians but are no longer really don't understand what being a Christian is. You can get fed up with your religion, your church, the people in your church, but how can you get fed up with being a child of the King? Many people who claim they were once Christians fit into the category of being disappointed with other Christians or some other aspect of the religion. Ghandi once said:

“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi

I have to agree with him. Many who claim to be Christian have misunderstood God's word, have expanded it to suit their ideas and sometimes have totally done the opposite of what Jesus would have them do.