Thread: What is a fact?

Originally Posted by Herby

Incorporeal, you needn't trust anyone. I suggest that you repeatedly measure the melting point of water yourself. This is an experiment that can be done at home. All you need is some water in a container, a freezer*, and a suitable thermometer. Make sure that the container contains both ice and water when you measure the temperature. Remember to put the thermometer into the icy water long enough to get consistent results.

Have fun checking Giftedone's claim.

* A heater works too if you live in a region with ambient temperatures a few degrees below 0°C.

I don't need a measuring stick to tell me that water is frozen. When I see that it is frozen, then I know that the weather is cold enough to warrant the use of a winter jacket. If I see the water in the trays of the freezer is frozen, then I know that I can use that frozen water to aid in cooling down other liquids and solid objects. Practical testing through observation and practical application of the results of my experiment and observation. Whatever arbitrary number is assigned to that frozen water is irrelevant. If the water is frozen, then the water is frozen.

As for the other posters 'claim'... not to worry. That other poster has not proven any of the claims that he has made on this forum or on this thread. He is an imposter who is imposing on the subject of intelligence.

Originally Posted by Giftedone

That is far too logical and would involve reasoning. IC will stick to the claim that the freezing point of water is arbitrary because the numbers on the termperature scale were arbitrarily chosen.

When boxed into a corner by sound reasoning otherwise .. IC will quickly turn the tables and start accusing his adversary of claiming that the freezing point of water is arbitrary.

When the adversary points out the lie by reposting the evidence... "prove it prove it" will be the response and the adversary will be accused of lying, and being in denial.

If you plant an apple seed, is that seed going to produce cucumbers? The same holds true with the arbitrary numbers on the thermometers. They cannot produce anything but more arbitrary numbers.

Originally Posted by Incorporeal

I believe that the Bible is true and real.

Does the statement above constitute a fact?

Assuming you do actually believe the bible is true and real. It's a factual statement about your belief if the statement is true. However, the statement "the bible is true and real" would be an opinion.

Originally Posted by Someone

Assuming you do actually believe the bible is true and real. It's a factual statement about your belief if the statement is true. However, the statement "the bible is true and real" would be an opinion.

However, the bold and underlined text is not what I said. I said that "I believe that the Bible is true and real." Big difference. My belief is not based on an opinion. . . it is based upon my personal experience in dealing with (working, using, learning from) that Bible and its contents.

Originally Posted by Giftedone

Do you think a person that can not understand that the freezing point of water does not change when repeatedly measured under the same experimental conditions qualifies as a person capable of reason ?

The freezing point that someone might conclude from the experiments or the individual measurements? Either may change depending on the precision and uncertainty of the experiment.

Originally Posted by Incorporeal

However, the bold and underlined text is not what I said. I said that "I believe that the Bible is true and real." Big difference. My belief is not based on an opinion. . . it is based upon my personal experience in dealing with (working, using, learning from) that Bible and its contents.

Many opinions are based on personal experience. Anyway, I don't think anyone is questioning whether or not your believe something. Most are just observing that whether you believe something and whether that thing is true are different questions. The fact that you do believe it, does not make it a fact that what you believe is true.

Originally Posted by Incorporeal

However, the bold and underlined text is not what I said. I said that "I believe that the Bible is true and real."

The first two sentences responded to that statement. The third sentence was about a related alternative, to provide context and clarification. Basic reading comprehension is involved in understanding that, so I am not surprised you had difficulty.

Originally Posted by Incorporeal

If I see the water in the trays of the freezer is frozen, then I know that I can use that frozen water to aid in cooling down other liquids and solid objects.

That is not true. The result depends on the temperature of the other liquids or solid objects. For example, if they're colder than the ice, they will get warmer when brought into contact with the ice.

Originally Posted by Incorporeal

Practical testing through observation and practical application of the results of my experiment and observation. Whatever arbitrary number is assigned to that frozen water is irrelevant. If the water is frozen, then the water is frozen.

The interesting part are the relations in between temperature and other physical quantities. That's where the exciting stuff happens and practical questions get answered.

What happens when salt is sprinkled on an icy road? Will it always melt the ice? Under what conditions doesn't it work anymore?

How should a new thermal power plant be designed? Is it worth the risk to do no physics and number crunching? Who would invest millions into uninformed guesswork with a high risk of building a piece of junk?

Originally Posted by Herby

That is not true. The result depends on the temperature of the other liquids or solid objects. For example, if they're colder than the ice, they will get warmer when brought into contact with the ice.

Which part is not true? If I see the water is frozen, the water is frozen; Irregardless of what the alleged temperature of the surrounding items are. IF THE WATER IS FROZEN, THE WATER IS FROZEN.

Originally Posted by Herby

The interesting part are the relations in between temperature and other physical quantities. That's where the exciting stuff happens and practical questions get answered.

What happens when salt is sprinkled on an icy road? Will it always melt the ice? Under what conditions doesn't it work anymore?

The water gets salty. "it" never could melt the ice, because "it" is just a word. Under what conditions does what not work anymore?

Originally Posted by Herby

How should a new thermal power plant be designed?

Either on paper (unlikely) or else with the use of a CAD system.

Originally Posted by Herby

Is it worth the risk to do no physics and number crunching?

People do that all the time.

Originally Posted by Herby

Who would invest millions into uninformed guesswork with a high risk of building a piece of junk?

The same ones who currently do the investing in such things as the Challenger which went up in a cloud of smoke and flames. The same ones that funded the construction of the bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, killing thousands and doing bodily and psychological harm to hundreds of millions more. Tax payers and of course private investors who had a vested interest in the development of such WMD's.

Originally Posted by Incorporeal

I believe that the Bible is true and real.

Does the statement above constitute a fact? If 'yes', then what 'fact' is established by that statement? If 'no' then explain why the statement is not a 'fact'.

What is a fact to me? It is that I am quoting what I am reading on the screen of this computer.

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