Thread: why Mormans are not Christian

Originally Posted by Neutral

There is one problem with this interpretation - the infallability of the church. The church is fallible, even Prophets, if not lead astray, can still be wrong. The church get around this with the Quaum of the 12 Apostles, and they hold one another accountable.

This is one of teh foundation notions of the church, and one that I rspec ta great deal - it allows the church to evolve with the time. Its why, for example, the recommended diet that Mormons follow is different than the one Moses perscribed - different place, different time, different technology, different food standard - and the church is will and able to adjust to these things.

If there is one thing that I have learned from the Bible, its the need for Wisdom to be applied in the correct context. Ite why the church, in its early persecution days can contextually dabble in polygamy - but, with changed circumstances, its now instantaneous excommunication. Indeed, the words in the D&C that cover this showed quite clearly that the church saw disaster if it stayed on that course - and indeed, take a good hard look at what is happening with Warren Jeffs and the FLDS church today?

That is the benefit of a Prophet, it avoids the doctrinal diputes that have riven so many other churches apart. The church is, thankfully, fallible, fixable, and adaptable. I am OK with a church that is not perfect, because, quite frankly there is no such thing.

i thought that warren fellow was in trouble mostly because of child marriage and rape related issues rather then just plural marriage itself

And of course they harm themselves with making it compulsory and driving out their own excess men

he’s only in jail because god has not busted him out and allowed him to be captured ( if a sufficiently powerful god exists ) as he has done for others before according to the book of Mormon

Scripture seems to deal in absolutes that’s another thing a proactive god could fix if it bothered to step in rather than some humans coming up with it in there theology so it can be disputed by people that think god would mention condition and exceptions if there were any to be had only the intervention of god can convince those hardliners of anything else

lack of divine intervention is leading to corruption and schisms

Originally Posted by stig42

i thought that warren fellow was in trouble mostly because of child marriage and rape related issues rather then just plural marriage itself

And of course they harm themselves with making it compulsory and driving out their own excess men

he’s only in jail because god has not busted him out and allowed him to be captured ( if a sufficiently powerful god exists ) as he has done for others before according to the book of Mormon

Scripture seems to deal in absolutes that’s another thing a proactive god could fix if it bothered to step in rather than some humans coming up with it in there theology so it can be disputed by people that think god would mention condition and exceptions if there were any to be had only the intervention of god can convince those hardliners of anything else

lack of divine intervention is leading to corruption and schisms

God is not going to intervene to solve our petty squabbles. He gave use free will, and we do with it as we please.

I see this all the time on our battlefields. Soldiers getting shot at and THEN it dawns on them that a battlefield is perhaps not the most brilliant place to be. Prayer happens at that point. Do you know how many Soliders have been miraculously transported from a battlefield to their mother's house? Zero.

That is because by the time a SOldier gets to a battlefield they have made teh decision several times over to be there. And when consequence arrives? Well, the learning curve for some is steep - but that is why we are here isn't it?

Any church that says God should free you from teh consequences of your decisions is one that I think is on its way to oblivion.

Originally Posted by Neutral

God is not going to intervene to solve our petty squabbles. He gave use free will, and we do with it as we please.

I see this all the time on our battlefields. Soldiers getting shot at and THEN it dawns on them that a battlefield is perhaps not the most brilliant place to be. Prayer happens at that point. Do you know how many Soliders have been miraculously transported from a battlefield to their mother's house? Zero.

That is because by the time a SOldier gets to a battlefield they have made teh decision several times over to be there. And when consequence arrives? Well, the learning curve for some is steep - but that is why we are here isn't it?

Any church that says God should free you from teh consequences of your decisions is one that I think is on its way to oblivion.

god could intervene when we use are free will and desire to serve it and do what’s right at that point god could be so kind as to let us know if were getting that wrong

Rather than leave it up for endless debate among peel who have faith but not knowledge

You are not free to do gods will if you don’t know what that is

Originally Posted by stig42

god could intervene when we use are free will and desire to serve it and do what’s right at that point god could be so kind as to let us know if were getting that wrong

Rather than leave it up for endless debate among peel who have faith but not knowledge

You are not free to do gods will if you don’t know what that is

What part of he isn't going to is hard to understand?

We are here to learn, not to be enslaved by the will of God.

Originally Posted by Neutral

What part of he isn't going to is hard to understand?

We are here to learn, not to be enslaved by the will of God.

How is knowing the will of god enslavement to it if we have free will?

Originally Posted by stig42

How is knowing the will of god enslavement to it if we have free will?

If God comes down and fixes all our problems that is exctly what we become. Knowing what his will is? YOu still have to choose to follow it. And plenty of people don't. There are consequences in both directions.

Originally Posted by Neutral

If God comes down and fixes all our problems that is exctly what we become. Knowing what his will is? YOu still have to choose to follow it. And plenty of people don't. There are consequences in both directions.

How is god telling us how he want us to act going to fix all of our problems when it’s up to us if we agree or disagree with god or choose to follow its instruction or not.

The only consequence is we would know what we’re doing better

Originally Posted by Neutral

There is one problem with this interpretation - the infallability of the church. The church is fallible, even Prophets, if not lead astray, can still be wrong. The church get around this with the Quaum of the 12 Apostles, and they hold one another accountable.

This is one of teh foundation notions of the church, and one that I rspec ta great deal - it allows the church to evolve with the time. Its why, for example, the recommended diet that Mormons follow is different than the one Moses perscribed - different place, different time, different technology, different food standard - and the church is will and able to adjust to these things.

If there is one thing that I have learned from the Bible, its the need for Wisdom to be applied in the correct context. Ite why the church, in its early persecution days can contextually dabble in polygamy - but, with changed circumstances, its now instantaneous excommunication. Indeed, the words in the D&C that cover this showed quite clearly that the church saw disaster if it stayed on that course - and indeed, take a good hard look at what is happening with Warren Jeffs and the FLDS church today?

That is the benefit of a Prophet, it avoids the doctrinal diputes that have riven so many other churches apart. The church is, thankfully, fallible, fixable, and adaptable. I am OK with a church that is not perfect, because, quite frankly there is no such thing.

It seems to me that you are equating the LDS Church with a Church built upon an exhaustive and ongoing study of the Gospel. As such, one might assume the room for such an endeavor to grow in understanding, and as you suggest, would be a logical explanation for the changes in doctrine. But the LDS Church is not such a Church. It was founded by God himself if you believe the Churchs doctrine.

Consequently, the Priesthood is the authority of God to minister in his name, and is central to the whole purpose of his Church and mans salvation. Otherwise there could be no ordinances performed, or anything legislated in Heaven or binding throughout all eternity by those whom he has authorized via the Priesthood and with the guidance of doctrine and the Holy Ghost here upon this earth.

And so, restricting the Priesthood from blacks would not be a small matter or something subject to the petty bias of men, or to the seasonal changes in the secular world where truth so easily falls in and out of favor. Clearly in the secular world this change or progression has been in full sway as evidenced by the civil rights movement in America. That seems to be the adjustments you are referencing in your views and defense of the LDS Church and the lifting of the Priesthood ban. But the LDS Church is not a free spirited secular institution, waltzing subserviently to the leadership of the handsome times.

I guess what I'm trying to say with all these words is that I can't believe that something as important as a Priesthood restriction could continue for 150 years in Gods own and only true Church(if you believe it is his Church) without Gods sanction.

Originally Posted by Injeun

It seems to me that you are equating the LDS Church with a Church built upon an exhaustive and ongoing study of the Gospel. As such, one might assume the room for such an endeavor to grow in understanding, and as you suggest, would be a logical explanation for the changes in doctrine. But the LDS Church is not such a Church. It was founded by God himself if you believe the Churchs doctrine.

Consequently, the Priesthood is the authority of God to minister in his name, and is central to the whole purpose of his Church and mans salvation. Otherwise there could be no ordinances performed, or anything legislated in Heaven or binding throughout all eternity by those whom he has authorized via the Priesthood and with the guidance of doctrine and the Holy Ghost here upon this earth.

And so, restricting the Priesthood from blacks would not be a small matter or something subject to the petty bias of men, or to the seasonal changes in the secular world where truth so easily falls in and out of favor. Clearly in the secular world this change or progression has been in full sway as evidenced by the civil rights movement in America. That seems to be the adjustments you are referencing in your views and defense of the LDS Church and the lifting of the Priesthood ban. But the LDS Church is not a free spirited secular institution, waltzing subserviently to the leadership of the handsome times.

I guess what I'm trying to say with all these words is that I can't believe that something as important as a Priesthood restriction could continue for 150 years in Gods own and only true Church(if you believe it is his Church) without Gods sanction.

You are making the same error as eth Old Testament. You are assuming that rules in and of themselves are perfect and unchangeable. The simply fact of the matter is that rules must be applied in context, and as teh world evolves, so too must the interretation of those rules.

It way the church is able to adapt, and, yes, when necessary a Prophet can change the rules. As was done for allowing blacks in the priesthood and with polygamy. No one doubts that these were substantive and correct changes. And the error is thinking that teh church is unchanging of not capable of being in error as the world changes around it.

We are no longer in the 1830's. and exactly because view of race changed consderably from that period, the church was able to adjust itself to the reality that all men are Created by God.

It also gives great hope within the church. There will always be diverse opinions within the church, but what the LDS church has done a very, very good job of doing is setting a code that its followers adhere to, and when membership starts disagreeing with certain standards, there is a healthy and respectful debate. Sometimes, when the issue becomes difficult - with a Prophet, one has the option of taking the issue to God for resolution.

That is an asset, but man is not, and never will be perfect.

Originally Posted by Injeun

It seems to me that you are equating the LDS Church with a Church built upon an exhaustive and ongoing study of the Gospel. As such, one might assume the room for such an endeavor to grow in understanding, and as you suggest, would be a logical explanation for the changes in doctrine. But the LDS Church is not such a Church. It was founded by God himself if you believe the Churchs doctrine.

Consequently, the Priesthood is the authority of God to minister in his name, and is central to the whole purpose of his Church and mans salvation. Otherwise there could be no ordinances performed, or anything legislated in Heaven or binding throughout all eternity by those whom he has authorized via the Priesthood and with the guidance of doctrine and the Holy Ghost here upon this earth.

And so, restricting the Priesthood from blacks would not be a small matter or something subject to the petty bias of men, or to the seasonal changes in the secular world where truth so easily falls in and out of favor. Clearly in the secular world this change or progression has been in full sway as evidenced by the civil rights movement in America. That seems to be the adjustments you are referencing in your views and defense of the LDS Church and the lifting of the Priesthood ban. But the LDS Church is not a free spirited secular institution, waltzing subserviently to the leadership of the handsome times.

I guess what I'm trying to say with all these words is that I can't believe that something as important as a Priesthood restriction could continue for 150 years in Gods own and only true Church(if you believe it is his Church) without Gods sanction.

Well possibly gods morality changes over time and is not perfect and any claim by god to the contrary being a lie

Or possibly the church is not under the control of a god