Thread: How can evil exist without God?

Yeah yeah, I know, there's no such thing as evil according to atheists. So when a child gets raped and murdered, it's just one of their friends having a good time. There's no such thing as rape or murder either, right?

Originally Posted by gophangover

Yeah yeah, I know, there's no such thing as evil according to atheists. So when a child gets raped and murdered, it's just one of their friends having a good time. There's no such thing as rape or murder either, right?

It says more about God that evil can only exist if he does. So, God is evil?

All kidding aside, define evil. I believe the concepts of good, evil, and morality in general are innate within the human species. Being animals, we are subject to evolution, like all other life. It is likely that humans who had evolved in ways that allowed them to work better in groups would survive better than those that did not.

What is evil to a snake? I would wager that they wouldn't understand the concept. Is it evil when a snake eats a rat? Is it murder? Obviously not, these things only apply to social animals and in particular ones that have evolved ways to fully contemplate their place in the world and the decisions they make.

Marality and the concepts of good actions vs bad actions are innate in humans. Worldwide studies have concluded that children of all ages have very good constructs of justice and mortality, regardless of environment and up bringing. That isnt to say they don't play a part, they most certainly do. It all serves to show that humans have a defined "nature".


Oh, i forgot empathy! We not only work with other people, we compete with them as well. This is why we have evolved a strong sense of empathy. It is important that humans be able to descern the future actions of other people. Are they friend, foe?

I could go on forever, but im typing on my phone and this is already a little bit ranty. In closing, ill only say that evil exists and without God.

Originally Posted by gophangover

Yeah yeah, I know, there's no such thing as evil according to atheists. So when a child gets raped and murdered, it's just one of their friends having a good time. There's no such thing as rape or murder either, right?

Concepts of good and evil are relative to the people you're looking at. The fact that murder and rape are almost universally condemned does not mean there is a cosmic or biblical structure of right and wrong that exist in a metaphysical sense. In fact, I would suggest that is exactly why Voltaire suggested that God would need to be invented if people didn't already believe he existed. It's the perfect way to instill a common universal baseline.

There's always a boss, that's the theme. When you're a kid, your parents are the boss. They basically define the boundaries right and wrong to you, at least within that home. When you go to school, your teachers and the principle are the ones who control right and wrong by means of the rules enforced within the school. When you go to work, your superiors are the arbiters of right and wrong. In your society, the laws of your local, state, and national government. But what's above all of humanity? Nothing. There needed to be something so that people everywhere, whether they have little else in common, could have a baseline to work with. The need of God as humanity's ultimate enforcer is undeniable, but his actual existence is completely up to each person to decide for themselves. And if God doesn't actually exist, the morality we all espouse on his behalf is not universal, not divine, but completely subjective and contextual to each culture. Which basically puts us all back to where we started before we had organized religion. The illusion of God is necessary for control, the reality of God is not, as long as people believe.

Originally Posted by Jefersonian

It says more about God that evil can only exist if he does. So, God is evil?
No, God created evil.
All kidding aside, define evil. I believe the concepts of good, evil, and morality in general are innate within the human species. Being animals, we are subject to evolution, like all other life. It is likely that humans who had evolved in ways that allowed them to work better in groups would survive better than those that did not.
Define evil: The opposite of good. Pretty simple huh.
What is evil to a snake? I would wager that they wouldn't understand the concept. Is it evil when a snake eats a rat? Is it murder? Obviously not, these things only apply to social animals and in particular ones that have evolved ways to fully contemplate their place in the world and the decisions they make.

Marality and the concepts of good actions vs bad actions are innate in humans. Worldwide studies have concluded that children of all ages have very good constructs of justice and mortality, regardless of environment and up bringing. That isnt to say they don't play a part, they most certainly do. It all serves to show that humans have a defined "nature".


Oh, i forgot empathy! We not only work with other people, we compete with them as well. This is why we have evolved a strong sense of empathy. It is important that humans be able to descern the future actions of other people. Are they friend, foe?

I could go on forever, but im typing on my phone and this is already a little bit ranty. In closing, ill only say that evil exists and without God.
Evil can't exist without God, nothing can. To say that evil exists but God doesn't, is the same as saying that destruction can exist without creation.

Evil is destructive, God is creative. God doesn't destroy and evil doesn't create. They are not interchangeable.

Originally Posted by Junkieturtle

Concepts of good and evil are relative to the people you're looking at. The fact that murder and rape are almost universally condemned does not mean there is a cosmic or biblical structure of right and wrong that exist in a metaphysical sense. In fact, I would suggest that is exactly why Voltaire suggested that God would need to be invented if people didn't already believe he existed. It's the perfect way to instill a common universal baseline.

There's always a boss, that's the theme. When you're a kid, your parents are the boss. They basically define the boundaries right and wrong to you, at least within that home. When you go to school, your teachers and the principle are the ones who control right and wrong by means of the rules enforced within the school. When you go to work, your superiors are the arbiters of right and wrong. In your society, the laws of your local, state, and national government. But what's above all of humanity? Nothing. There needed to be something so that people everywhere, whether they have little else in common, could have a baseline to work with. The need of God as humanity's ultimate enforcer is undeniable, but his actual existence is completely up to each person to decide for themselves. And if God doesn't actually exist, the morality we all espouse on his behalf is not universal, not divine, but completely subjective and contextual to each culture. Which basically puts us all back to where we started before we had organized religion. The illusion of God is necessary for control, the reality of God is not, as long as people believe.

God created religion, but God isn't religious.

Originally Posted by gophangover

Yeah yeah, I know, there's no such thing as evil according to atheists.

What gave you the impression that atheists believe evil does not exist? Evil can only exist from a subjective standpoint--evil is what the individual believes is evil. It's not an objective, demonstrable force in the universe.

Originally Posted by Someone

What gave you the impression that atheists believe evil does not exist? Evil can only exist from a subjective standpoint--evil is what the individual believes is evil. It's not an objective, demonstrable force in the universe.

Obviously you don't believe evil exists. A nuclear bomb explosion is a pretty evil demonstrable force, believe it or not.

Originally Posted by gophangover

Obviously you don't believe evil exists. A nuclear bomb explosion is a pretty evil demonstrable force, believe it or not.

No, a nuclear explosion has nothing inherently subjective attached to it. It is just the forces of physics at work. It has no emotion, personality or really any human characteristics. It just is what it is. You can't call a nuclear explosion any more evil than you can call an asteroid that slam into Earth evil.

You can call the people who set off that explosion evil though, but even there, no matter how universally accepted that belief may be(that the people who set off the bomb were evil), it's still subjective.

That's why humanity needed God, so that there was something higher, unchallengeable, to appeal to. Religion is man's attempt to give the world a universal meaning and purpose, because we are frightened of uncertainty and very emotional creatures.

So, evil does exist, but it's defined completely by the person or culture you're dealing with.

Originally Posted by gophangover

Obviously you don't believe evil exists. A nuclear bomb explosion is a pretty evil demonstrable force, believe it or not.

A nuclear explosion is a demonstrable force; but nuclear weapons do not release a wave of evil when they go off in an uninhabited portion of the desert. They release a shockwave instead, which is itself morally neutral.

The evil is in deciding to use that against inhabited cities and such. And that's subjectively evil, not objectively evil. It's quite possible to morally justify a nuclear attack with an objective moral system--it's impossible to morally justify it with a subjective morality.

No, a nuclear explosion has nothing inherently subjective attached to it. It is just the forces of physics at work.

You are just doing the Texas two step. A nuclear bomb won't go off without the evil action of the button being pushed. The destructive effect of the bomb going off is evil. Humans didn't create God, because humans didn't create the universe. God created the nuclear bomb, but evil sets it off. God creates all that exists, evil destroys what it is given permission to destroy. That's the only reason all those nukes haven't already gone off.