Thread: Did Jesus ever even exist?

Originally Posted by Man on Fire

I hate to break it to you but that is just a made up picture. The camera was not invented until about 1800 years after he supposedly died.

True on all counts - the article explains how the picture was created.

I like that you question things and are a truth seeker. I faced the same question as you did. what really assured me the jesus existed was actually a documentary i watched on neflix talking about the evidence for jesus. I dont remember what it was called though. I can assure you that the evidence that a man named jesus was crucified by the jews because he claimed to be the Messiah at the same time the bible claims, is overwhelming and most historians agree with certainty he existed.

Two thing you really need to decide for yourself 1) was he a real man that died the way the bible says, most historians agree he was, and i was recorded by the romans, jews and to-be christians.
2) was he the son of god ect ect. (a whole new bag of worms) that is where the real controversy is


2000 years is not was long as it seems...we all like 100 years, that's 20 generations ago.


This is just one of the first links that popped up when i googled the topic but there are much more creditable source i have seen before
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread390640/pg1

Originally Posted by Diuretic

True on all counts - the article explains how the picture was created.

The picture is ultimately based on the Biblical descriptions, which means that if you don't believe the biblical claims, the picture is useless. If you believe the biblical claims, Jesus already exists and no picture is needed to verify that.

I'd like to think that a person - a really good guy , like Jesus did at some time exist and he paid tribute to our good Lord Dionysus - by turning water into wine, exempt /free from excise duties and taxes .

I cant wait for the second coming when he'll hopefully perform that trick again. GLORY BE (hic)

Did a guy named Jesus exist and claim that he was god's son?

I don't know about Jesus, but Dave Koresh existed.

Well, start at the beginning. Why is it that the church spread so quickly, despite horrible persecutions? Why is it there are no records despite the torture and killings of anyone going back on this story? That in itself is pretty mind blowing. Most of the people surrounding the early church were killed. Not in our modern "go to sleep and never wake up" killed, but basicly tortured to death. How is it that not one of them -- even to save his own life -- says there is no Jesus? Another thing -- if Jesus was not ressurected as reported, why did the apostles to the last man insist that not only was it a ressurection, but that it was a physical one? Not something you would say if you thought that there was a chance of being proved wrong. So something weird is happening if yo, u think there is fraud.

The "conspiracy" goes something like this. 12 guys make up a story about a new God. A Jewish God-Man (even though Jews are devout monotheists). This story says that a Jewish Woman gives birth to a Jewish God man (greeks and romans weren't really fans of Jews BTW), he does a lot of healings and says some stuff. Then he gets executed in a particularly horrible way. Then said Jewish God-Man walks out of the tomb. That's the made up story -- so the 12 guy start telling this story around Jeruselem. Jews don't like it, and tell them to shut up. They don't. Then a Christian gets killed for this message. Still they don't stop. Then one by one they all get executed for telling this story, and not one of them ever says "we made it up". No one can find anything that doesn't support their story either. Had they had a corpse in the tomb, the story stops, had Mary decided to step in and tell people about a one night stand, it stops, Had the people of that time not seen any such preacher, the story stops. Gimme a break -- it's not possible to do that without having major holes.

Besides that, the mythological examples have a huge difference -- the stories were NEVER set in history. There was no attempt to give a rough date for Romulus and Remus, nor a date for Heracles. It's essentially set much like Star Wars -- a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Jesus had his story set in History. We know roughly what year he was born, and roughly what year he died. Why? the monarchs are named -- Herod, Pilate, Caeser Augustus. We have a definate backdrop of Israel, and places that we can point to on a map -- something that doesn't always happen in myths. We also have accounts fairly early on -- the earliest Christian writings are from around AD 70, when witnesses still lived, and certainly not enough time for some poet to have come along and added to a story.

I've got a fairly simplistic take on this but that's because I'm re-educating myself on the topic.

Jesus was born in Nazareth about 4 or 6 BC. He had brothers, probably sisters. As an adult he was a carpenter and general handyman type. He was a rabbinic figure, began a ministry after meeting John the Baptist and was preaching for only a few years before he came under the eye of the Jewish and Roman authorities who colluded to stop him as they considered him to be troublemaker. He was executed by the Romans whilst still in his early 30s.

The reason for the spread of Christianity has everything to do with its teachings, from Jesus. Think back to those times, in societies that were ruled by absolute dictators (whatever their title) which were ruthless, totalitarian and brutal, in which social values consisted of obedience to the established social order (as I've described it, it was unpleasant), with state religions that were used to support the social order. Along comes a set of religious teachings that tell people there is only one God. That that God is a god of mercy, compassion and love. That the misery of human existence at that time could be relieved by belief in that God. And you come to the conclusion that the reason Christianity spread so quickly and has lasted for so long is that it is good for humans.

Originally Posted by Diuretic

And you come to the conclusion that the reason Christianity spread so quickly and has lasted for so long is that it is good for humans.

It was not very good for all the people killed by Christians. The invasion of the Americas and the devastation there? The Spanish inquisition?

Originally Posted by NineInchNailz

To answer this question we need to go back into history to the first century. Jesus was said to have lived in the first three decades of the century, dieing some time around the year 33 AD. The gospels were all written later. The first gospel written by Mark mentions the destruction of the Jewish temple which happened in the year 70 AD so the gospels all came later than that. There's a gap of at least 4 decades between Jesus and the first gospel.

Between those years the only writings about Jesus came from Paul. He said he saw Jesus come to him in a vision. Paul says the Lord told him to spread the word of Jesus Christ, which he did. During his travels he spread the word and recruited believers, those believers then became the beginnings of the Christian church. Paul never heard of any of Jesus' miracles, his virgin birth, any of the parts that make up the story of Jesus that Christians know. He only mentions the death, rising, and ascension and even those take place in a mythical realm. He never even says Jesus was a human being.

Then at least 40 years later, Mark wrote the first gospel, and from that came all the other gospels. He stole almost all of the aspects of the story from pagan mythical stories such as Romulus, Heracles, Dionysus, Osiris, Mithra, and more. The similarities are extensive so I'll quote another website on the subject.

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2009/09/13/...n-sons-of-god/





Those are just two of many examples. The entire life of Jesus appears to be a work of fiction. No eye witnesses, every aspect of the story taken from earlier pagan myths. If those pagan stories are not true why is the story of Jesus true?

The claim that Jesus Christ never existed is just one of the many actions being taken by anti Christ elements to destroy the real Jesus Christ. Aside from the claim that Jesus Christ never existed, they also claim Jesus Christ is not God, Jesus Christ was not crucified, and the printing, distribution and preaching of books about all of those. These also include the many claims that Jesus Christ is the pagan sun god, or relating all kinds of paganism to Christianity are all part of an attempt to destroy the true God, Jesus Christ.

The life and crucifixion of Jesus Christ has been witness by many and has been historical proven and authenticated by scholars and archaeologist that indeed there was man to the unbelievers he is Jesus of Nazareth to Christians he is Jesus Christ.

Yes, Jesus Christ did existed after he was crucified all his followers especially the Apostles went into hiding they all feared for their lives that they too will suffer the same fate as Jesus, torture and crucified. But after a few days when a man who claim to be the resurrected Jesus Christ showed himself to them and proof that he is the crucified Christ, suddenly all the Apostles become fearless, wise and holy. These Apostles will travel all over the known world to preach about the God that is Jesus Christ. Many will convert and worship Jesus Christ and many will also die at the hands of the Romans. All the Apostles will die a painful death that they will all face with holiness and open heart forgiving all their tormentors and persecutors.

St. Paul who was once an anti Christian, a Christian hunter that is equivalent to the Nazi SS of WWII would convert to Christianity and become one of the Apostles, because of his Roman citizenship and social background St. Paul was able to spread Christianity further and reach more people but still like the Apostles he too will die a Christian death.

St. Paul, the Apostles and all the early Christians have nothing material to gain in fact majority of them lost property, businesses, social status and their lives all because they refuse not to worship Jesus Christ. It would take another 100+ years after the death of St. Paul before Christianity will finally be accepted by the ruling Romans.

If ever there is any falsification of history, they are being introduce by those anti Christ. Yes, there was a pagan religion that is related to the sun and yes there is also the Son of God that finally convince pagans of the sun to worship the Son of God. And yes, there are many other gospels including the "gospel" of Mohammed, all these are written to corrupt the true gospels of the Bible. That is why our church fathers spend their entire life in safe guarding these true gospels at the same time researching any new discovered gospels to makes sure they are not fake. These fake gospels are identical to what we see in many fake or imitated items such as fake Rolex watches, fake Microsoft software, fake will, fake lottery, fake money etc. all these fakes have one thing in common to exploit the situation and to destroy, corrupt the real substance or the real items.

Originally Posted by Man on Fire

It was not very good for all the people killed by Christians. The invasion of the Americas and the devastation there? The Spanish inquisition?

When Christianity was made the state religion of the Byzantine Empire the rot set in. I can't condemn the principles of Christianity because political authorities have used the religion for domestic and foreign oppression. Humans have a history of using their local religion to support the status quo power arrangements. Christianity in its original form, Jesus' teachings, was a threat to the established order which is why Jesus was executed and many of his Apostles were also executed. When the power of Jesus' teachings was realised and the interpretation of his words suitably reframed by the nascent church to suit the established order, the religion was co-opted to support the status quo.

But look on the bright side, it wasn't all bad! At least the Conquistadors put an end to the practice of human sacrifice.

Even in its co-opted form Christianity, or at least the essence of Jesus' teachings, can push through the political gunk that tries to envelope and use the religion for its own ends. A more subtle but no less damaging example is the place of Christianity in American politics today, it's just a continuation of the use of the religion for political purposes that goes back to Constantine. Even the Catholic Church itself has been corrupted into the pursuit of power and influence rather than ensuring Jesus' teachings are heeded. As I mentioned, this is a human tendency and it transcends any particular religion. The difference with Christianity is that its basic principles are beneficial to humans and in that it was very different from its competitors (in its early days).