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About LinkBacksChurchmouse,
Just a question: Do you in fact claim that homosexuality is a sin for all people based upon the Bible, and that homosexuality is one of the "bad" things causing our society to (in your perception) decline?
It's a simple yes/no question.
Guru
Churchmouse,
Just a question: Do you in fact claim that homosexuality is a sin for all people based upon the Bible, and that homosexuality is one of the "bad" things causing our society to (in your perception) decline?
It's a simple yes/no question.
twitter.com/BullsLawDan <~ My Twitter (may be NSFW). Follow me!
"But it wasn't until he met his beautiful wife that he learned using logic and reason isn't enough. You have to be a dick to everyone who doesn't think like you." - South Park on Richard Dawkins
HonestJoe said,
Ok I understand and I agree."By "people of God" (with the quotes), I was basically saying the same thing as your "Christians in name only". I don't think the issue is a new one though - throughout history, people who have claimed to be Christian have done very unchristian things, including political and religious leaders. People haven't fundamentally changed."
I believe one that thinks and acts like Christ. One whose life shows the fruits of the Spirit. One who stands on the Truth of the Word…no matter what…even when the world comes down on them. One whose primary goal is to carry out the commands that Jesus gave…spreading the gospel and sharing with people the Good News of what came and what is to come. Jesus came to warn people…He talked more about hell than heaven for a reason. He is the bridge the only mediator we have to the Father. He came to share love….but also to tell people that He is the Only Way. If you love people you want them to know this…..so a Christian would share this freely."Of course, you also have the (largely) internal debate of what being a "true Christian" actually means."
I see what you are saying…but we can't live in a society that basically says….everything is the truth…there is no One truth. I can get along with my neighbor if he is a Satanist. But if he starts sacrificing animals in his backyard and the government backs up his right to do it….I can't live with that. Should we embrace Sharia Law in the country? Should we accept honor killings from the Muslim community. They do it in the Middle East…why not here? Should we allow abortions especially targeting girls? Why is everyone so upset over that one?"That isn't the point. Of course we all have different beliefs, world-views and opinions (even within groupings such as "true Christians"). The point is that we all have to live together, in the same cities, nations and world. To do that effectively, we have to find a practical compromise between all those conflicting opinions (which is largely what has happened in the Western World over the past couple of decades."
So whose morals do we live by? Society changes…and now morals are changing….I don't think for the better. Look at the civil unrest in countries around the world…everyone battling to live together…..
I believe that there is only one way an accident happens. There might be six different eye witness stories…but there is only one way the accident happened. I believe as a Christian that this is the best the right way to live. LIke you said…much evil has been done by those Christians "in name only"…but if everyone actually acted out what Christ was all about…how He said to live…we would be a happier nation/world. How people compare Christianity to other religions and come off saying that it is worse is beyond me. Husbands would love and be committed to their families, no promiscuity, no hunger….people helping people…with love not because they had to do it.
WEll take the principles that Christ was all about. What is wrong with them? What could be a better system to live by?"I am saying that other people have opinions and just because those opinions don't come from the same source as yours doesn't automatically make them any less valid. If you want to convince people that your way is the best way (which it could well be), you need to back it up with a little more that your personal faith."
As a Christian my faith comes first. It is not something I put away when I am at work…I live it everyday.
Well I think if you're going to throw out statistics like that you need to be able to back them up a little better than having read them somewhere in a different context.
I respectfully disagree….they can change freedom of speech. Laws of this type have done what I am implying in Canada and Sweden already and it is happening here as well."Sorry, but that is absolute trash, especially from the religion that supported blasphemy laws for so long. Hate crimes can't criminalise Christianity, though they could criminalise attempts to impose it upon other people (that that equally protect Christians from the opposite)."
Although he wrote this in 2007 and it has become law thanks to Obama….Ron Paul said it best…read this.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul385.html
"HR 1592 could lead to federal censorship of religious or political speech on the grounds that the speech incites hate. Hate crime laws have been used to silence free speech and even the free exercise of religion. For example, a Pennsylvania hate crime law has been used to prosecute peaceful religious demonstrators on the grounds that their public Bible readings could incite violence. One of HR 1592's supporters admitted that this legislation could allow the government to silence a preacher if one of the preacher's parishioners commits a hate crime. More evidence that hate crime laws lead to censorship came recently when one member of Congress suggested that the Federal Communications Commission ban hate speech from the airwaves."
http://catholicexchange.com/catholic...ime-in-canada/
And it is happening here.
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-...ing-christians
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=...Q--,1339772731
Why did these civilizations crumble? You don't see a pattern?"Civilisations rise and fall; I doubt that will change, though how they do it probably will. I don't agree with your suggested root cause (turning away from God) then or now, and you've presented no evidence to convince me otherwise."
How on earth can you claim to live by Christian morals. Jesus sending drones? Jesus supporting the zionist child-killers? Jesus supporting control by the rich? Jesus supporting racism? Jesus supporting the jailing of vast numbers? Jesus supporting the arming of every nutter who wants? Come ON!Originally Posted by churchmouse
Gobeithiaw y ddaw ydd wyf.
Guru
No. There is no pattern. You are seeking a pattern because you want to support your predetermined beliefs, but no, there is really no pattern to the decline of various civilizations throughout history.
twitter.com/BullsLawDan <~ My Twitter (may be NSFW). Follow me!
"But it wasn't until he met his beautiful wife that he learned using logic and reason isn't enough. You have to be a dick to everyone who doesn't think like you." - South Park on Richard Dawkins
Guru
But you're ok with someone killing an animal in a market? Sorry I dont see why you cant live with the act just because a satanist does it? I'd be opposed to him killing an animal because its wrong to kill the animal, not anything else.
Because its a breach of individual autonomy - even Muslims will back that.
If the mothers involved so choose, yes.
Didnt know they were.
We live by the morals that are most logical and rational. Christianity is not logical or rational, but within your private space you cna do anything you want.
When will you ever understand - BELIEF ISN'T ENOUGH.
I cna assure you A LOT of "evil" doing Christians thought they were acting correctly. So your assertion is just wrong - the world doesnt turn out happier. if it did, people would be even more religious than they used to be - but they're not, they're increasingly irreligious.
I think history of Christianity provides ample evidence to the fact Christianity does not lead to such outcomes, and to say it does shows a complete denial of the reality of human qualities.
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I'm willing to change my position at any time on any issue. I have done so in the past. All you need is a logical, provable case, and I'm all in. The question is, have you got what it takes?
Oh, and just so you're not confused, I'm an apatheist libertarian.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." --Noam Chomsky
MegadethFan said,
I meant control. The pill makes it possible for women to be promiscuous. In stead of abstinence or waiting until marriage…the pill if taken on time allows women to be sexually active."How does it take the place of self-control and personal responsibility?"
Funny you talked about your last girlfriend in another thread. Can't you commit? LOL Do you have a different one every week?"Not at all - its hard for Christians."
[QUOTE]"It is fun, yeah."
Yes sleeping with as many people as possible is the way to go…right?
You celebrate the deviant…so any talk of morals…would be foreign to you."Well no, my intention is restricted to giving and receiving orgasms."
http://theweek.com/article/index/204...by-the-numbers"Ok... so what? Also, what is your evidence for "porn addiction"?"
http://www.overcoming-porn-addiction...rnography.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ar-480091.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/20...et-pornography
I thought you had the Holy Spirit at one time? You should know."So what do you consider Christian?"
For me in a nutshell….I believe that God exists…I measure everything by Him. I believe He was the creator of everything. I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I believe that God came to earth and lived in the flesh…He is the Word…Christ. He was crucified, died and He rose again and was witnessed. I believe that men and women chose to rebel against God first in the Garden and because of that evil…death and sin came upon the world. I believe the commandments that Christ gave believers….that He is the Only Way to have eternal life with God. He said this himself while on earth. A Christian would believe that truth is absolute not relativistic like the world believes. I believe that we as Christians should make all moral decisions based on what Christ said and instructed. We should be a reflection of Christ in all ways…this shows through the fruits that we bear. We are the salt of the earth. A Christian puts God first always…and defends Christ because He is Lord over their lives. You either worship Christ…or the world…you can't worship both.
I believe you are and you do blame us for all the worlds problems. Believing that you once were a Christian is hard for me because you are so outwardly hostile to the entire worldview. You certainly lump all Christians together. And its not only Christians its God. You mock God."Well...1. I'm not hateful of Christians - I'm hateful of their ignorance2. I dont blame Chrisitans for anything, just their bull(*)(*)(*)(*)3. I lost my faith, in part, because self described Christians continued to call me an atheist when I asked them questions they couldnt answer.4. The reason I inevitbaly lost my adherence to Christianity was what I call "the irresistible onslaught of reason."
There is no such thing as an atheist. You can not prove God does not exist…you are agnostic.
And gays have always been out of the closet right? No they have not. Back in my mother and fathers generation…there was sleeping around. But promiscuity was not a virtue…and girls at least were called sluts if they did. You never saw a girl in high school pregnant. I graduated in 1974 from high school…and their might have been one in the entire school. We did not sleep around. I am not saying it did not happen but certainly not like today. And in my parents and their parents generation is was rare."Evidence for this?"
Analyst
But you're fine with killing babies?
Elected, Called, Regenerated, Converted, Justified, Reconciled, Adopted, Sanctified, Persevered, Glorified.
MegadethFan said,
So you hate PETA right? I thought you believed that animals lives were worth more than human life? You said that in an abortion thread. I believe God created animals also for food. Do I believe that people should just go around killing dogs and cats and their pets. No. I don't care what religion they are. Why do you think its wrong to kill the animal?"But you're ok with someone killing an animal in a market? Sorry I dont see why you can't live with the act just because a satanist does it? I'd be opposed to him killing an animal because its wrong to kill the animal, not anything else."
It is a part of the culture over there. So why not allow it here. Is it wrong? ARe you telling them its wrong?"Because its a breach of individual autonomy - even Muslims will back that."
What if the target were men? But then your pro-abortion for any reason and any month. You don't recognize the life in the womb at all."If the mothers involved so choose, yes."
Yes and laws are being made now to stop it. Which makes no sense. The pro-abort community says its a woman's choice….so no pro-choicer should be upset girls in the womb are being attacked. They are hypocrites."Didnt know they were."
But if this country becomes Muslim and they see our freedoms…especially sexually as wrong…then Sharia law would not be out of the question. Based on your worldview…you have no right to tell them their actions are wrong. To each his own…right? I have a right outside my space. I live in America and I have rights afforded me by the Constitution. One is freedom of speech…another is freedom to protest. I have the right to parade down the public squares…just as much as homosexuals do. Only today…the Christian gets arrested. I find your worldview illogical and cold. BElief and faith is enough. That is why I don't believe you were a Christian. You obviously never had it."We live by the morals that are most logical and rational. Christianity is not logical or rational, but within your private space you cna do anything you want."
Thats because Christians are not perfect people. You just discount us if we make a mistake. The world would be better…if everyone followed Christ and everything He did….there would be no social problems. You just are bitter against Christ and God…so you don't get it."I cna assure you A LOT of "evil" doing Christians thought they were acting correctly. So your assertion is just wrong - the world doesnt turn out happier. if it did, people would be even more religious than they used to be - but they're not, they're increasingly irreligious."
And your right…following Christ is hard. It means you can't go out like you say is so cool…..and have sex over and over with whomever ya want. The flavor of the day. Christ specifically defines what is right and wrong. You want control…you want to call the shots…so giving your heart and your life over to someone you hate…or deny would be out of the question for you.
Being a Christian is not about the religion as a whole. It is all about the relationship you have with Christ and no one else. When people take things over….bad things happen…and we see that is happening in churches all around the world. People are turning away from God because society says they can. Abortion which was once immoral is now to be commended. Homosexuality…attacks the family unit. What does God know? Right? Take your eyes off of God…and bad things happen. History will attest to that."I think history of Christianity provides ample evidence to the fact Christianity does not lead to such outcomes, and to say it does shows a complete denial of the reality of human qualities."
If the pill became as popular as it did, then that means that morals were already slipping. Blaming the pill is just wrong.
"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it."- American Philosopher George Santayana
Guru
Why are those things wrong though; because of the practical negative consequences or because they're not Christian?
I'm sure that my general morals are very similar to yours. We're bound to disagree on some points but the core and principals will be largely the same. That probably extends to the vast majority of the population. We've not agreed those morals simply because it says so in the Bible (or any other religious text), they've been discussed, negotiation and agreed by common practice over many generations.
You can argue for the moral principals you support but, just like everyone else, you need to support them with strong practical arguments (which in most aspects you could). Simply saying "It's Christian!" won't cut it. That's my key point here.
What I called rubbish was your claim that Christianity will be criminalised. Freedom of speech (and freedom in general) has always had practical limitations and preventing incitement to hatred is a perfectly reasonable one IMO. Another restriction would be the laws preventing your Satanist neighbour sacrificing animals in their garden but I don't hear you decrying the criminalisation of Satanism.
Again, we share a world yet we all have different opinions about how that world should be. The only possible solutions are compromise or dictatorship (and you could end up on the wrong side of the latter).
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