Thread: Nothing ever dies in the Universe...

Originally Posted by OverDrive

What amazes me is the 'dis-honesty' of those who support 'multiple universes, or a combined multiverse,' other dimensions (up to 99 now?), etc. is that they will deny even the possibility of a dimension in this universe called the spiritual dimension...a non-physical dimension that cannot be measured by the physical, but manifests thru out the recorded history of mankind by super-natural, unexplained phenomena. To me, that smacks of bias and a dis-honesty among supposed 'truth seekers'...

Originally Posted by thebrucebeat

By describing unexplained phenomena as "supernatural" you are providing an explanation that there is no evidence of. Unexplained does not mean that explanation can not be discovered. It means it hasn't been. Thus, eclipses were once considered miracles. We know better now.
There is no phenomenon in history that you can describe that can be absolutely attributed to the supernatural. Unexplained, surely. Discovery continues and we learn more each day. You are applying a chosen explanation (the supernatural) to the unexplained, and equating them. That is a bias, though perhaps not dishonest, as I am reasonably sure you believe it.

Nothing?

Originally Posted by OverDrive

What amazes me is the 'dis-honesty' of those who support 'multiple universes, or a combined multiverse,' other dimensions (up to 99 now?), etc. is that they will deny even the possibility of a dimension in this universe called the spiritual dimension...a non-physical dimension that cannot be measured by the physical, but manifests thru out the recorded history of mankind by super-natural, unexplained phenomena. To me, that smacks of bias and a dis-honesty among supposed 'truth seekers'...

Ignoring that you dodged a post accusing you of equivocation with a tour-de-force of additional equivocation, your complaint here is a straw man. Your fascinating garbling of the concepts of physical dimensions with some "spiritual dimension" does violence both to the science and the theology. After all, if we are spiritual beings, then perforce the dimensions that hold our physical and spiritual beings are one and the same. But the straw man is not the fuzzy thinking that went into your prologue, but your portrayal of what your opponents believe and why they believe it.

There are very few philosophical materialists who started out assuming their materialism. For almost all (certainly all that I personally know) it is a conclusion, not an assumption. It is the end point of a generally lengthy and conscientious evidence based attempt to parse truth from fiction. We have become materialists because there is simply no evidence for the existence of spirit/soul, and no way to get there by reason.

We are skeptical not stupid. We do not "deny even the possibility" of most anything. There is no shortage of potential evidence that would convert even the most rigid of us in a heartbeat... all of which is certainly within the power of any reasonably potent and competent God. But it is simply true that such evidence has never been presented. I further assure you, most of us would be delighted to discover an afterlife. But given what we know today, it would be a breach of intellectual and moral integrity to concede such an idea.

Are we biased? Of course we are. But it is bias honestly earned. We are not prejudiced, we are postjudiced. No sentient being can exist if they expect or demand ultimate and absolute proof before they draw any conclusions. There comes a time in any thinking person's consideration when they are justified in saying, "Okay. I have learned enough, and this is where I come down on the issue." I fully admit that I am biased about many things. I am biased in favor of breathing air rather than water. I am biased in favor of chocolate ice cream over arsenic. I am biased in favor or democracy over fascism. I am biased in favor of being kissed on the mouth by a beautiful woman rather than being punched in the face by an ugly man.

Bias is not automatically a bad thing. In fact it is as essential to human survival as family and food.

So what is the source of your straw man? Projection? Frustration? I really have not read enough of your stuff to voice a strong opinion.

But give me time. I will listen to what you say. Weigh your arguments. Look at your "evidence." And at some point I will draw a conclusion... based on a process of discovery rather than the credulous faith based acceptance of what somebody else said in a book, or in a pulpit, or in a web forum.

See how that works?

Originally Posted by WongKimArk

Ignoring that you dodged a post accusing you of equivocation with a tour-de-force of additional equivocation, your complaint here is a straw man. Your fascinating garbling of the concepts of physical dimensions with some "spiritual dimension" does violence both to the science and the theology. After all, if we are spiritual beings, then perforce the dimensions that hold our physical and spiritual beings are one and the same. But the straw man is not the fuzzy thinking that went into your prologue, but your portrayal of what your opponents believe and why they believe it.

There are very few philosophical materialists who started out assuming their materialism. For almost all (certainly all that I personally know) it is a conclusion, not an assumption. It is the end point of a generally lengthy and conscientious evidence based attempt to parse truth from fiction. We have become materialists because there is simply no evidence for the existence of spirit/soul, and no way to get there by reason.

We are skeptical not stupid. We do not "deny even the possibility" of most anything. There is no shortage of potential evidence that would convert even the most rigid of us in a heartbeat... all of which is certainly within the power of any reasonably potent and competent God. But it is simply true that such evidence has never been presented. I further assure you, most of us would be delighted to discover an afterlife. But given what we know today, it would be a breach of intellectual and moral integrity to concede such an idea.

Are we biased? Of course we are. But it is bias honestly earned. We are not prejudiced, we are postjudiced. No sentient being can exist if they expect or demand ultimate and absolute proof before they draw any conclusions. There comes a time in any thinking person's consideration when they are justified in saying, "Okay. I have learned enough, and this is where I come down on the issue." I fully admit that I am biased about many things. I am biased in favor of breathing air rather than water. I am biased in favor of chocolate ice cream over arsenic. I am biased in favor or democracy over fascism. I am biased in favor of being kissed on the mouth by a beautiful woman rather than being punched in the face by an ugly man.

Bias is not automatically a bad thing. In fact it is as essential to human survival as family and food.

So what is the source of your straw man? Projection? Frustration? I really have not read enough of your stuff to voice a strong opinion.

But give me time. I will listen to what you say. Weigh your arguments. Look at your "evidence." And at some point I will draw a conclusion... based on a process of discovery rather than the credulous faith based acceptance of what somebody else said in a book, or in a pulpit, or in a web forum.

See how that works?

Sorry (for you) but you have already expressed your bias in this discussion and 'my' OP, and already have shown a disdain for spiritual evidence from history, and are a disqualified seeker of truth as to the total of the universe and all of its possibilities.

And have haughtily placed yourself as 'judge' in this discussion altho biased, is a vein of humor that only an egotist would enjoy. Sorry, if this didnt 'stroke' your ego, but plz do your crying elsewhere.

But I thank you for your honesty in being 'dis-honest' per your posting....

And, yes, it works fine for me....

Originally Posted by OverDrive

Nothing ever dies in the Universe.

the First Law of Thermodynamics states:



Matter will always be around in one form or another. Even when stars die or super nova, new astro-entities are created at some point, as have all the elements beyond the basic Hydrogen atom (1 proton/1 electron), including the fission happening on the sun converting to He (2 protons/2 electrons), etc.

And 'when' all stars collapse at the 'supposed end of this universe,' all their remnants (the end of all stars' nuclear burning stage) still produce a burned-out white dwarf. And that remnant of eventual star 'ash' could with all the other star ash in the universe could be drawn back together by formerly weak gravity into another singularity, and the process restarted ad infinitum!

And just as all life on this planet naturally 'dies,' it does not die but is converted. In the case of a plant, scripture says that,

John 12:24
I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

Was used in this case to show the analogy of the death of the righteous Jesus Christ which did produce millions of like seeds (followers).

And as our human body dies physically, there is the option of 'the new birth' to cause a rebirth of the human spirit and continue to infinity in the spiritual realm...a case where matter transforms into new life, where just as the resurrected Jesus, who received a new 'glorified' body, which has also been promised to those who faithfully, unto death, follow Him. But a 2nd death is promised to those who do not accept the rebirth of the human spirit, and is yet also geared for eternity but in a different form & place.

And so, "Nothing ever dies or completely goes away, but is transformed"...all live in eternity, but in different forms!

As long as sin is not allowed in Heaven, you can count me out. I refuse to even visit.

Originally Posted by OverDrive

What amazes me is the 'dis-honesty' of those who support 'multiple universes, or a combined multiverse,' other dimensions (up to 99 now?), etc. is that they will deny even the possibility of a dimension in this universe called the spiritual dimension...a non-physical dimension that cannot be measured by the physical, but manifests thru out the recorded history of mankind by super-natural, unexplained phenomena. To me, that smacks of bias and a dis-honesty among supposed 'truth seekers'...

Originally Posted by thebrucebeat

By describing unexplained phenomena as "supernatural" you are providing an explanation that there is no evidence of. Unexplained does not mean that explanation can not be discovered. It means it hasn't been. Thus, eclipses were once considered miracles. We know better now.
There is no phenomenon in history that you can describe that can be absolutely attributed to the supernatural. Unexplained, surely. Discovery continues and we learn more each day. You are applying a chosen explanation (the supernatural) to the unexplained, and equating them. That is a bias, though perhaps not dishonest, as I am reasonably sure you believe it.

Nothing? Really?

Originally Posted by OverDrive

What amazes me is the 'dis-honesty' of those who support 'multiple universes, or a combined multiverse,' other dimensions (up to 99 now?), etc. is that they will deny even the possibility of a dimension in this universe called the spiritual dimension...a non-physical dimension that cannot be measured by the physical, but manifests thru out the recorded history of mankind by super-natural, unexplained phenomena. To me, that smacks of bias and a dis-honesty among supposed 'truth seekers'...

LOL The Bible doesn't even make that claim. Sounds like you guys are getting your sciency ideas from stoners who happen to claim Christianity!

Stick to what the Bible says and leave science for the scientists and stoners of the world.

Originally Posted by thebrucebeat

Nothing? Really?

let me ask you a 'slightly off-topic' Q:

Do you believe in UFO's, more than just phenomena, but signs of extra-terrestrial intelligence?

Originally Posted by OverDrive

What amazes me is the 'dis-honesty' of those who support 'multiple universes, or a combined multiverse,' other dimensions (up to 99 now?), etc. is that they will deny even the possibility of a dimension in this universe called the spiritual dimension...a non-physical dimension that cannot be measured by the physical, but manifests thru out the recorded history of mankind by super-natural, unexplained phenomena. To me, that smacks of bias and a dis-honesty among supposed 'truth seekers'...

Originally Posted by OverDrive

let me ask you a 'slightly off-topic' Q:

Do you believe in UFO's, more than just phenomena, but signs of extra-terrestrial intelligence?

Don't want to discuss your bias? Ok.

I have no idea what they imply. They are unidentified, so everything from there is speculation. Why?

Is this supposed to equate to you ascribing the supernatural to the unexplained? Sorry. I apply the same requirements to UFO's. The unexplained is the unexplained, whether you believe the answer to be supernatural or not.

You tried.

God is coming to Australia on Nov. 13. That's the next eclipse.

Originally Posted by thebrucebeat

Don't want to discuss your bias? Ok.

I have no idea what they imply. They are unidentified, so everything from there is speculation. Why?

Thx for posting your closed-mindedness; and yes, biased, state of mind.....my 'bias' as you refer to it as, is based on the 'substance of faith' as I have previously quoted to you..but you have a 'selective' memory and live in your own world of denial of words that threaten your state of apostasy

Originally Posted by OverDrive

Thx for posting your closed-mindedness; and yes, biased, state of mind.....my 'bias' as you refer to it as, is based on the 'substance of faith' as I have previously quoted to you..but you have a 'selective' memory and live in your own world of denial of words that threaten your state of apostasy

How is he close-minded for saying he doesn't know what the ufos are?