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Thread: Did the story of Job take place before Lucifer's fall?

  1. #1

    Default Did the story of Job take place before Lucifer's fall?

    According to Christian dogma, Lucifer was cast out of heave for pride and could never again look upon the face of God. However, in the story of Job, Lucifer speaks with God, challenging him to test Job's faith. This contridicts the idea that Lucifer was bannished from the presence of god, and could no longer be near him.

    According to some scholars, the story of Job comes from a sect of Judaism that believed that Lucifer was not a fallen angel, but the angel of judgment and death. And that he was never cast out of Heaven. It is his job to test the faith of humans and to record their sins in the book of judgement.
    "To the primitive mind, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
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  2. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daggdag View Post
    According to Christian dogma, Lucifer was cast out of heave for pride and could never again look upon the face of God. However, in the story of Job, Lucifer speaks with God, challenging him to test Job's faith. This contridicts the idea that Lucifer was bannished from the presence of god, and could no longer be near him.

    According to some scholars, the story of Job comes from a sect of Judaism that believed that Lucifer was not a fallen angel, but the angel of judgment and death. And that he was never cast out of Heaven. It is his job to test the faith of humans and to record their sins in the book of judgement.
    Ah, good question, and I hope you don't mind having an atheist explain this to you!

    In Judaism, Satan isn't Lucifer. Satan just meant "adversary" and was basically supposed to represent anybody who tested the faith of God's followers. This is why at various points in the Tanakh Satan is personified. In the Book of Job he is just a celelstial being that is subordinate to God and there to play a part in God's divine plan.

    Anyways, the whole character of Satan portrayed by Christianity and Islam was non-existant in the Jewish world at the time the Book of Job was written.
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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraspingforPeace View Post
    Ah, good question, and I hope you don't mind having an atheist explain this to you!

    In Judaism, Satan isn't Lucifer. Satan just meant "adversary" and was basically supposed to represent anybody who tested the faith of God's followers. This is why at various points in the Tanakh Satan is personified. In the Book of Job he is just a celelstial being that is subordinate to God and there to play a part in God's divine plan.

    Anyways, the whole character of Satan portrayed by Christianity and Islam was non-existant in the Jewish world at the time the Book of Job was written.
    Well the story of Lucifer's fall is based on a myth about Ba'lal.
    "To the primitive mind, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
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  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daggdag View Post
    According to Christian dogma, Lucifer was cast out of heave for pride and could never again look upon the face of God. However, in the story of Job, Lucifer speaks with God, challenging him to test Job's faith. This contridicts the idea that Lucifer was bannished from the presence of god, and could no longer be near him.

    According to some scholars, the story of Job comes from a sect of Judaism that believed that Lucifer was not a fallen angel, but the angel of judgment and death. And that he was never cast out of Heaven. It is his job to test the faith of humans and to record their sins in the book of judgement.
    Where does it say satan can't look on the face of God in scripture?
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  5. Default

    I believe it was after his fall. "Whence comest thou?" (Where did you come from?) I think he still had his ways in, but I do believe he was banished to the earth before then. "From going to and fro in the earth and walking up and down in it." (Him moving about the world, observing things.) I'm not the best at explaining it, but I do believe this much.
    Last edited by Independent with a voice; Jan 31 2013 at 07:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 24:17
    Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by elijah View Post
    Where does it say satan can't look on the face of God in scripture?
    It does not, but churches have been preaching it for centuries. It also does not say that you have to ask a preist for forgiveness and receive last rites from one before you die in order to get into heaven. But that does not stop the catholics, who formed the basis of christianity as we know it, from preaching it. Many things in Christian dogma never actually appear in scripture.....such as the rapture. The rapture is never mentioned in the bible. The only time Jesus ever calls anyone to heaven before the day of judgement is when he called the rightious dead, those who either died before his crucifixion, but lived good lives, or those who were saved, but died before his return to heaven with him. But the calling of all those who are saved to heaven, with everyone else being left on earth never happens in the bible.
    "To the primitive mind, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
    Arthur C. Clarke

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daggdag View Post
    ...
    żLucifer?

    Background:

    -----
    Hi 11,17 et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam et cum te consumptum putaveris orieris ut lucifer
    Hi 38,32 numquid producis luciferum in tempore suo et vesperum super filios terrae consurgere facis
    Ps 110,3 tecum principium in die virtutis tuae in splendoribus sanctorum ex utero ante luciferum genui te
    Jes 14,12 quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes
    2Petr 1,19 et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris .
    ----

    That's it - more is not written about "lucifer" (=lightbringer, morning star) in the whole bible (vulgata). So what are you speaking about?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy5XA4SwuPg
    Last edited by Anobsitar; Feb 01 2013 at 03:20 AM.
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  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daggdag View Post
    It does not, but churches have been preaching it for centuries. It also does not say that you have to ask a preist for forgiveness and receive last rites from one before you die in order to get into heaven. But that does not stop the catholics, who formed the basis of christianity as we know it, from preaching it. Many things in Christian dogma never actually appear in scripture.....such as the rapture. The rapture is never mentioned in the bible. The only time Jesus ever calls anyone to heaven before the day of judgement is when he called the rightious dead, those who either died before his crucifixion, but lived good lives, or those who were saved, but died before his return to heaven with him. But the calling of all those who are saved to heaven, with everyone else being left on earth never happens in the bible.
    well the CONCEPT of the rapture is a different discussion altogether. Now as for the church teachings, you're right on all accounts, thats why I appreciate the reformation. Catholics din't form the basis of Christianity, Jesus did that with some explanation from Paul.
    Elected, Called, Regenerated, Converted, Justified, Reconciled, Adopted, Sanctified, Persevered, Glorified.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by elijah View Post
    Where does it say satan can't look on the face of God in scripture?

    Good question Elijah!

    I personally am even open to the idea of Satan eventually repenting and coming back to God....much as you and I and every other human on earth is in the process of doing step by step....day by day?!

    Here is an interesting ancient writing that gives another angle on the fall of Lucifer:

    "[The Revolt of Satan, and the Battle in Heaven.]
    And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to worship him. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not worship him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust." And the Rebel meditating these things [Fol. 5b, col. 2] would not render obedience to God, and of his own free will he asserted his independence and separated himself from God. But he was - swept away out of heaven and fell, and the fall of himself and of all his company from heaven took place on the "Sâtânâ" because he turned aside [from the right way], and "Shędâ" because he was cast out, and "Daiwâ" because he lost the apparel of his glory. And behold, from that time until the present day, he and all his hosts have been stripped of their apparel, and they go naked and have horrible faces. And when Sâtânâ was cast out from heaven, Adam was raised up so that he might ascend to Paradise in a chariot of fire And the angels went before him, singing praises, and the Seraphim ascribed holiness unto him, and the Cherubim ascribed blessing; and amid cries of joy and praises Adam went into [Fol. 6a, col. I] Paradise. And as soon as Adam entered Paradise he was commanded not to eat of a [certain] tree; his entrance into heaven took place at the third hour of the Eve of the Sabbath (i.e. on Friday morning)."
    http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/anders...ings/Cave.html

    My guess would be that Lucifer loved God but his passionate love got twisted into jealousy which led to lots of other problems such as lying and murder!


    If God the Father the Ancient of Days is as emotionally involved in the creation as Rick Joyner was shown....it is no wonder that Lucifer would become extremely attached??!!


    http://www.scribd.com/doc/63814881/T...RickJoyner-PDF

    Pastor Rick Joyner, The Vision, page 85 and 86:

    CHAPTER 15 Worship in Spirit

    As I listened to Wisdom, it was difficult to comprehend anyone, even this great cloud of witnesses, desiring authority or position in His presence. It seemed that in every moment I had spent here, He had become greater in glory and authority, and I knew that my vision of Him was still limited. Just as the universe was obviously expanding at a great pace and the vastness of it was already incomprehensible, our revelation of Him would likewise be expanding for eternity. “How could mere humans ever represent You?” I questioned.

    “When My Father moves His little finger, the whole universe trembles. To shake the nations with words does not impress anyone who dwells here. But when even the least of My brethren on earth shows love, it brings joy to My Father’s heart. When even the most humble church sings to My Father with true love in their hearts, He silences all of heaven to listen to them. He knows that one cannot help but to worship when they are beholding His glory here, but when those who are living in such darkness and difficulty sing with true hearts to Him, it touches Him more than all of the myriads of heaven can.

    “Many times, the broken notes from earth caused all of heaven to weep with joy as they beheld My Father being touched. A few holy ones struggling to express their adoration for Him has many times caused Him to weep. Every time I see My brethren touch Him with true worship, it makes the pain and grief I knew on the cross seem like a small price to pay. Nothing brings Me more joy than when you worship My Father. I went to the cross so that you could worship Him through Me. It is in this worship that you, the Father and I are all one.

  10. #10

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    The Book of Job has been looked at several ways: mythology and as the earliest written book in the OT.

    But I do agree that it is often confusing as to the scriptures describing Lucifer vs. also Adam the 1st men. Both wanted to be 'as God' and had similar rebellious characteristics.

    I see it as a 'story' that explains how the righteous are tested (allowed to be tested by the enemy of God who demands 'his right') and how God allows it but rewards the righteous with 'restoration and more.'

    I personally see it as early writings of the followers of monotheism of their time with spiritual truths revealed all thru out the book...I just mentioned a few in this post.
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