Something Wonderful Is About To Happen - Page 2

Clara-Listensprechen · #11 (**permalink**) 05-22-2006, 09:46 PM

I didn't know that Java was a religionist--thank you for telling me.

#12 (**permalink**) 05-23-2006, 07:16 AM

quit whining, 12th man. Clara has a point.

heikstheo · #13 (**permalink**) 05-23-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clara-Listensprechen";p=&quot

What this is, is laughable. Me, I quit posting here because the rightwingnut moderators here kept meddling with my postings inserting accusations of things I never committed.

The one thing scurrelous people like that can't do is change what's in The Bible, tho what The Bible actually says depends on the version quoted.

As to the End Days and the Second Coming, here's all about it straight from The Bible:

Quoth John The Baptist in Matthew 3:7-12--

Quote:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?...The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I ...His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

In his instructions to his apostles when he first sent them out, Jesus is on record as saying:

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... I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

Matthew 10:23 Further confirming thus:

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I tell you the truth some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 16:28 A little more cryptically, in his O Jerusalem rant, Jesus says:

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For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord"

Matthew 23:39
And Luke was convinced when he wrote Acts, quoting "Peter":

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Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days.

Acts 3:24
In Romans 13:8-42 Paul gives instructions to not leave any debt outstanding because The Return is imminent; and clinches his instructions thus:

Quote:

And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Now, don't anybody hand me any relativism saying that of course the end days are nearer after ya believe than when you first believed. Paul's words smack you down thus:

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What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

1 Corinthians 7:29-31

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The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place...and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Opening paragraph of Revelation.

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Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:18

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The end of all things is near.

1 Peter 4:7

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He was chosen before creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

1 Peter 1:20

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Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

2 Thessalonians 2:3

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For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Thessalonians 4:19

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Jesus turned and said to them, " Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. For the time will come when you will say, "Blessed are the barren women, the bombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!"

Luke 23:28-29

Quote:

Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. "These men are full of new wine." Those who heard the apostles speaking in tongues thought they were drunk but Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams

Acts 2:11-17

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Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:18

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And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:3

The Good Lord is over 2000 years late bringing them thar porkchops.

Why pork chops [considering that most of the early Christians were Jews, who do not eat pork]?

heikstheo · #14 (**permalink**) 05-23-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot

And here we see it illustrated more. Skeptics against religion take the bait of using Scripture to argue against the faithful. The faithful can always win out because the book is full of disclaimers like that one. But I don't agree with the point of the skeptic using the scriptures in the first place:
1) Why does the skeptic care if others continue to have their faith? That isn't the issue. It's whether they can live at peace with the rest of us and help us solve the problems that we all face.
2) Why make the common ground for debate the scripture which one believes and one does not? The common ground should be our shared reality and our shared conscience.

Java: I'm not so sure that I agree with your point about it being "bait" (by which I assume you mean a trap) for skeptics to argue about religion based on the Bible (or other holy writ). If your point is that Mr./Ms. Christian will know the Bible better than Mr./Ms. Atheist, that might be true sometimes but other times not. Now, if Mr./Ms. Christian really is reading his/her Bible like he/she should, then Mr./Ms. Christian might actually be well-versed therein. On the other hand, it may be, at least in some cases, that Mr./Ms. Christian has not read his/her Bible anywhere near so much as he/she should and so might not have anywhere near the Biblical literacy one might think and, indeed, there are some Christians who probably think they're quoting the Bible when they are actually quoting Benjamin Franklin, a Deist. On the flip side of the same coin, Mr./Ms. Atheist might not be near so Biblically illiterate as one might think. In some cases, Mr./Ms. Atheist may have been a church member for a good many years and read his/her Bible daily for a long time but left organized religion and became an atheist after being subjected to no end of psychological abuse by individuals considered to be "pillars of their local church" and "pillars of their community." Or, in other cases, Mr./Ms. Atheist may never have been a Christian but nevertheless may have become very familiar with the Bible while engaging in a very elongated course of studies, formal or informal, in comparative religion.

Another thing is this. If there were to be scheduled a debate between Mr./Ms. Capitalist and Mr./Ms. Communist, depending on whom you might wish to advise, wouldn't you advise Mr./Ms. Communist to read the works of Adam Smith so that he/she can know what Smith actually said before trying to prove him wrong? Or maybe advise Mr./Ms. Capitalist to read the works of Karl Marx so that he/she can know what Marx actually said before trying to prove him wrong? That said, if we were to schedule a debate between Mr./Ms. Christian and Mr./Ms. Atheist, why wouldn't it be advisable for Mr./Ms. Atheist to read the Holy Bible and Mr./Ms. Christian to read whatever comes closest to an "atheist Bible"? Best advice in any debate is to understand how your opponent thinks in order to figure how to prove him/her wrong.

JavaBlack · #15 (**permalink**) 05-24-2006, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clara-Listensprechen";p=&quot

I didn't know that Java was a religionist--thank you for telling me.

Don't believe I can be considered a "religionist" so much. Religion indicates some kind of shared rituals and customs. I have my own spiritual philosophy and am pretty much dedicated to peaceful coexistence of faiths with a common moral interest based on empathy and harmony.

If I understand you right, Clara, it seems that you equate belief in God (or at least Christianity) with the erosion of that peace. Because there are too many exceptions to the rule, I cannot believe that is true. There is some other variable that is harder to pinpoint that creates this disharmony.

But either way, my main point from before is better summed as:
I don't see a good reason for attempting to destroy the faith of religious people and I don't see how arguing within the context of Scripture would accomplish that goal. Disclaimer, cop-out, different reasoning, or whatever: some one can always come back and back up their point using Scriptural evidence... and it will almost always be equivalent in value to your own.

Clara-Listensprechen · #16 (**permalink**) 05-26-2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heikstheo";p=&quot

Why pork chops [considering that most of the early Christians were Jews, who do not eat pork]?

Refer to George Carlin.

Clara-Listensprechen · #17 (**permalink**) 05-26-2006, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heikstheo";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot

And here we see it illustrated more. Skeptics against religion take the bait of using Scripture to argue against the faithful. The faithful can always win out because the book is full of disclaimers like that one. But I don't agree with the point of the skeptic using the scriptures in the first place:
1) Why does the skeptic care if others continue to have their faith? That isn't the issue. It's whether they can live at peace with the rest of us and help us solve the problems that we all face.
2) Why make the common ground for debate the scripture which one believes and one does not? The common ground should be our shared reality and our shared conscience.

Java: I'm not so sure that I agree with your point about it being "bait" (by which I assume you mean a trap) for skeptics to argue about religion based on the Bible (or other holy writ).

What other reason did Locke have, pray tell? ...and then when he got questions from a skeptic, attempt to cop out?

Anybody asking why I ask questions instead of answering the questions I was invited to ask, is copping out BIG TIME. Just answer the questions. Why is none o yer beezwax. Either you can answer the question or you can't. The second you ask WHY, you admit that you can't.

Quote:

If your point is that Mr./Ms. Christian will know the Bible better than Mr./Ms. Atheist, that might be true sometimes but other times not.

Ummm, not entirely; track record has been that via this method, preachers attempt to set themselves up as knowing-more-than-thou about theology, not the book itself. That's why they trip over the book so much, as has happened here. Face it-- the religion their institutions have installed into their graymatter software isn't really Biblical, and they'll always fail to inform the person they're attempting to lead by the nose WHICH VERSION of said Bible they supposedly believe in.

Quote:

Now, if Mr./Ms. Christian really is reading his/her Bible like he/she should, then Mr./Ms. Christian might actually be well-versed therein.

If they believe in the Book, it should be regarded as a given that they've actually read what they claim to believe in. Oft-times that's not the case, as oft-times they have no idea which version it is that they believe in.

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On the other hand, it may be, at least in some cases, that Mr./Ms. Christian has not read his/her Bible anywhere near so much as he/she should and so might not have anywhere near the Biblical literacy one might think and, indeed, there are some Christians who probably think they're quoting the Bible when they are actually quoting Benjamin Franklin, a Deist.

Such people as that depend on preachers to tell 'em what to believe and it's not so much a case that these people believe in any version of The Bible but it IS the case that they believe whatever the preacher has told them to believe in. Like sheeple.

Quote:

On the flip side of the same coin, Mr./Ms. Atheist might not be near so Biblically illiterate as one might think. In some cases, Mr./Ms. Atheist may have been a church member for a good many years and read his/her Bible daily for a long time but left organized religion and became an atheist after being subjected to no end of psychological abuse by individuals considered to be "pillars of their local church" and "pillars of their community."

You're ruling out people who have actually read the thing, in any given version, and find it incredible that anybody using the brains God gave 'em would believe in all the wretched warmongering, rapage, and bloodletting in the entirety of the whole thing. Not to mention the inconsistancies and contradictions.

People who believe in it haven't really read it; people who don't believe in it HAVE.

Dial8 · #18 (**permalink**) 05-27-2006, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot

And here we see it illustrated more. Skeptics against religion take the bait of using Scripture to argue against the faithful. The faithful can always win out because the book is full of disclaimers like that one.

The "faithful" do not "win" by quoting that verse. If Jesus has a different sense of time, it doesn't change the fact that to fulfill the prophecy he has to come back in the first century.

CyrusNirvStr · #19 (**permalink**) 05-30-2006, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clara-Listensprechen";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by heikstheo";p=&quot

Why pork chops [considering that most of the early Christians were Jews, who do not eat pork]?

Refer to George Carlin.

Hahahaha, i'd be laughing out loud if I wasn't in my Teacher Aid class.

CyrusNirvStr · #20 (**permalink**) 05-30-2006, 06:52 AM

I have no problem with religion. Any type. My problem is that Christianity, by nature, acts like a virus and is very aggressive. It forces its way in wherever it goes. Like Christmas, to the words of Lewis Black, is: "A beast that can not be fed."

If the rapture is coming, let it. I love to help people. I do all I can to help people. But I am not Christian. 90% of the world is not Christian. 70% of the country is not Christian. If God will sacrifice 90% of his children, he is not a good, all loving being. True Love is unconditional. God should not hate us for that.

Me, I am not a christian because of the psychological damage your religion did to me for so long. For so long, I wanted to feel Christianity, I wanted to believe. For years on end. It never happened. I could never believe it. It always was too stupid.

If the Rapture is coming, or even real, and only the Christians (and there are VERY bad christians in the world) but not the truly good people (non-religious people, in my area, usually are kinder, and have better morals) are sent to burn, I will burn beside them. No all loving God would be that cruel.

I appreciate your concern, but it is not needed. You may feel Jesus is coming, and I hope that the threat of a coming doom lets you become a better person. Whatever it takes to make you a good person. I will be one simply because I want to. You live in fear, and I will live in hope.

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