What the Church teach’s or believe is one thing and what individual members or I believe is another. I do not believe in the doctrine of the trinity, as such, even though I believe that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the trinity, as explained by those who subscribe to it, make the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit a mystery. Are you aware that nowhere in the Bible is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as persons? In fact the Bible said God is a spirit John 4:24 (KJV) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The word person describes a human being, and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not a human being, even that word “substance” give the implication of something that is made up of parts, spirit do not have parts. The doctrine of the trinity does not and cannot explain how is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, but the Bible does.


The word of God

John 1:1 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Word: logos, log'-os; from Greek 3004 (lego); something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty or motive; by extension a computation; specially (with the art. in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) :- account, cause, communication, × concerning, doctrine, fame, × have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, × speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

Jesus is the mind and thought of God; the thought and utterance of God proceeds from God, it identifies God, and is therefore God.


John 8:42 (KJV)
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Proceeded: exerchomai, ex-er'-khom-ahee; from Greek 1537 (ek) and Greek 2064 (erchomai); to issue (literal or figurative) :- come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.


God the Father

It is the Father who gave the command to make man in their image.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Jesus was the one who created and upholding/sustaining all things

John 1:10 (KJV)
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


Hebrews 1:3 (KJV)
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


The Father identified His Son

2 Peter 1:17 (KJV)
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.



The Holy Spirit/Spirit of God

The Holy Spirit as the scriptures below showns is God in action, when the Holy Spirit does something; it was God whom is acting.

Matthew 3:16 (KJV)
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Matthew 12:28 (KJV)
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Romans 8:14 (KJV)
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


John 10:30 (KJV)
I and my Father are one.

John 1:1 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Hebrews 1:3 (KJV)
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

John 10:30 (KJV)
I and my Father are one.

John 1:14 (KJV)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 14:9 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


It could be that they did not have access to all the books of the Bible, in particular the New Testament letters/writings to some of the members of the Church.

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It was the Fathers who selected the texts that we now think of the New Testament. They had access to many texts and picked and choose very carefully. The Book of Revelations was very nearly left out.
After the Reformation, Protestants shed a number of late "Old Testament" Hebrew writings which had been in the Christian bible for centuries. Read below:

It would seem more like God was guiding there hands more than they knew what they were doing, because if they fully understood the New Testament, then those who came after them would know that the creed is not needed….well, I know I don’t need it: I got along well without it, before I even knew it exist and I trust I will get along with out it still.

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What we call "the New Testament" today is a collection of ancient texts that were selected by men. Most of the writings under consideration did not make the cut. Once the codex was finalized, there was an enormous effort to rid the world of those writings that were not included. Heresies were declared against those who still revered them.
The writings one leaned toward in those days depended largely on where you resided. Antioch, Alexandria, Rome etc had schools of thought associated with them and strong adherents with righteous arguments. One of the great contributions of the Emperor Constantine was to force his subjects to adopt one set of constructs. It is ironic that the ones he initially settled upon were later ruled to be heretical by Church elders.
You did not invent your own Christian formulary. It was passed down to you by others. One can trace the developments, practices and theological assumptions you have back well before the birth of Jesus. The same can be said for the function of Judaism. I understand that such a path holds no interest for you. You are hardly alone. Faith passeth all understanding. Just remember...
There is little new under the sun.

There is much to dispute in your account of the history of the church. Many motives and suppositions are assumed in it, leading to wrong conclusions. Primarily however, you do not understand the power nor the providence of God. In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. All of God's qualities and character predate every religion, and thus will be found pre-Judiasm and pre-Christianity. The Bible covers much of God's work thousands of years prior to Judiasm from the beginning of time. It is not surprising that some elements should be consistent in all true religion from the beginning of man until now. It's the same God.

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Martin Luther continued to believe, although he translated it, the book of Revelation did not belong. It was left in mostly I believe, because it was traced to John and John carried enough weight even if it was difficult to understand.

The books were not accepted by the early church, and were not accepted by the Jews who had put together the scriptures contained in the Old Testament in the first place.

Secondly, Maccabees makes no mention of the doctrine of Purgatory. It is simply an account of a man named Judas praying for the dead that they might be forgiven of sin because he had found his dead kinsmen with consecrated idols and he feared they had been sinning against God. Nothing in that account directly conflicts with a particular doctrine of the Protestant church. Paul himself mentioned being baptized for the dead in I Corinthians 15.

The Old Testament was based on works. Tobias, a supposed Old Testament book would not contradict anything. James teaches the importance in the eyes of God of good works as well.

And gave proper notice that these books weren't accepted by the Church or the Jews for the first 4 centuries of Church history in the first place. Look, I can open up my regular Bible and there will still be passages with large paranthesis and notes that the earliest manuscripts don't contain these passages. If they had placed the questionable books in the Bible without noting them, they would be accused of hiding their dubious authenticity.

Not really that important. I have them any time I want to look at them, (I'm a Protestant) and there were quite a few Catholics in the world as well the last I checked. There is no great conspiracy to rid the world of books here. They simply aren't accepted as Scripture.

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Teft, it's a good question and I respect anyone's belief about it. For me it's been a question of the right of the government to "bear the sword" as the New Testament says it does, and my own role in a government that allows me to vote and influence it in some small way.

I do believe governments have the right to defend their country or citizenry, to punish "evildoers" as Peter said, etc... Since we live in the United States, we have a voice in the government and thus, we are participating with the authorities in the role the New Testament spoke about.

So I have to balance what I believe the government has a right to do, as given by God, and what God has asked me to be as an individual. It's not always an easy answer, and certainly I don't agree with everything our government has done, but on the other hand, I don't disagree with everything either.

So I guess my general answer is: I'm not for a war, but occasionally I do believe justice demands it. Sounds Jimmy Carter-esque doesn't it?

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[quote]You are entitled to your opinion.
This is, indeed, where our primary dispute rests. I believe that there is no such thing as a god and that what has arisen within the tradition of humans is a form of neurosis. Faith in deities and the ritualizing that followed are denial-driven attempts to sublimate our inevitable deaths.
The bible is a fascinating collections of histories, tall-tales and myths; many of which have been borrowed from traditions antecedent to the rise of the Hebrews. The neurosis common to most men is an affliction with much shared symbology.

The "Old Testament" is a trope concocted by Christians [credit Paul as prime mover] to provide a theological and historical antecedent to the, then new, Christian writings. Jews do not have an Old Testament. They have a collection of sacred scripture and dispute what the see as a hijacking of their texts. The development of early Christian apologia was focused on these issues.
There was significant debate among the early fathers as to the meaning of the Tobit stories. Opinions differ.
That they did. However... The Rabbinic tradition which necessarily began with the pulverization of the Second Temple and the end of the Jewish state, incorporated these additional sacred texts into their central corpus. I emphasize... Jews had no "Old Testament."
The effort to rid the world of early and anathematized writings came about quite early. I expect you are familiar with these Roman-led efforts. One of the burnings of the Alexandrian Library by the bishop was motivated by the desire to rid the world of the devil's subtle wiles. The early Church made a conscious effort to eradicate much of the learning of the Greeks and Greek-influenced Christian theology. This, of course, was impossible. Plato made a kind of come back with Augustine and Thomas can be credited as Aristotle's sponsor.
Having caused the Dark Ages... the Christian [Roman Catholic] church was instrumental in bring about its end.

It's an unavoidable accusation. If God created the earth, and if Genesis is correct when it portrays the people who lived prior to any official religion as having some form of belief in God -even if He was just one of many. Then naturally every religion of the world, including those predating Judiasm would have traditions common to Judiasm. Simply put, if God was worshiped pre-Judiasm (as Genesis says), then things would not change radically with Judiasm.

Thus, there will always be the unavoidable accusation that the Hebrews borrowed traditions even if they merely continued them. So it won't prove much either way.

The thing that takes the Bible away from tall tales and myths and into reality for me, are the literal prophetic fulfillments, and the reality of Christ. Those deserve other threads though.

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