But I have a question for myself which I cannot answer..... If were perfect, then how did we become imperfect?

If something is perfect doesn't that kinda mean it is and always will be perfect, I dunno, I've got my self into a huge, sticky mental web that I can't pull myself out of.

Here's the link to the other forum if you want to read the whole discussion.
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb...c.php?t=156590
My name there is 10-Planets

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"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." -V

I'll make an effort to find someone who can adequately answer your question, Locke.

I think freewill gets you on the right track. Without it, we would all be slaves, don't you think? How can we be redeemed if we're given only one choice?

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

Good point, 12th.

I'd approach the question from a slightly different standpoint.

God is either everything, or He's nothing.

Take your pick. You can't have it both ways.

If He's "everything", then he represents both good and evil, and in that case the assignment of "attributes" to an unknowable God is just anthropomorphic thinking.

In other words, if one considers that God is "only" good, and everything evil is "not" God, then isn't one putting God into a box?

How can one carve out "a small piece" of God (ie whatever part of His creation man egotistically considers to be "good"), and consider that to be His totality?

Personally, it makes much more sense to me to consider God in terms of the essential symmetries of nature. Tha "laws" of the universe - the "structure" that somehow evolves in a chaotic subatomic environment, and somehow gives rise to the "complexity" that is human beings.

It seems to me, that the concepts of "good" and "bad" are uniquely anthropomorphic - and even beyond that - they belong to "individuals", not to the human race as a whole. One man's good is another man's evil, and only God knows what's REALLY good.

That judgement (ie what is REALLY "good"), belongs to God, and not to man.

The arrogance involved in assuming that an individual human being can fully understand the totality of God, is astounding. And it's only "slightly" less astounding, that the first place peoples' heads go, is to attempt to assign attributes to the infinite.

Is this life "good"? I don't know. Maybe it is. "Mine" happens to be pretty good right now, but that's just my own gestalt, and it has nothing to do with God.

It's interesting to note peoples' reactions to events. When something "bad" happens, some people get pissed off about it and complain loudly, and others try to derive meaning from it (and learn lessons from it).

Is the glass half full, or half empty? I suggest, that it's only a matter of individual perception. As is "good", and "bad".

Seas increase, and they fall again. Such are the laws of nature. Is it "good" when seas increase? It's probably good if you're a fisherman, and not so good if you're a sailor. See what I mean?

Without evil and suffering, there really can't be good. So in order to stand for good, you have to have some evil lying around. Evil must precede good because good is simply the stand against evil. Evil is more defined... suffering, malevolence, death, torment, sorrow, etc. Good is whatever counters these things. Historically if you look at descriptions of afterlife... we have an unlimited imagination for our hells and underworlds, but only a vague notion of Heaven... Heaven is mystery to us in this mortal coil. We understand Hell because it reflects our toil (%@%@% Did I just write a poem?).
Not being much the type to accept religious answers, I think we grew into the altruistic, social species we are as a reaction to the evil around us. We always strive for perfection, an escape from the shadows of Hell around us.
The Norse religion summed it up best. Evil was destined to win. The gods and the righteous dead would fall to the giants at Ragnarock... but that did not mean it was right to stop fighting for good. After the fall would be a new beginning after all (Not another friggin' rhyme!)

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"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

Thats a good point.

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"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." -V

1. There is no god(s). We made it up a long time ago. We were mistaken. Everyone makes mistakes.
2. "Good and Evil" are metaphysical constructs we made up a long tie ago, too. The ideas are useful but are not A Priori. What had been previously thought to be "Good", (like enslaving people) are no longer considered "Good." Most people think of slavery as "Evil." There are plenty more examples like this.
3. Every species "suffers." Our species has noticed that the suffering is not at all equally distributed among its members. We choose to assume that our imaginary creation "god" is:

• a. punishing or rewarding humans as it sees fit
  b. punishing or rewarding humans based on rules that it handed down
  c. planning to restore "fairness" in one of two imaginary eternities.

It is to our credit that we humans think that "fairness" and morality are laudable things. It is a mark of progress for us that our social coordinating entities (governments/religions) often see it as an overarching moral goal.

I believe that it is our obligation to the future of our species to continue to work toward fairness for all. Just don't expect our imaginary father figure to do it. It's our responsibility.

Einstein's Theory Of Relativity.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Black and White.
Matter & Antimatter
Kirk & Klingons
Batman & Penguin
Courageous Cat & Master Cylinder
Tweety & Sylvester
Toto & Flying Monkeys
Frodo & The Ring
Yoda & Darth

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O'TEDDY BIN-SWIMIN

Ain't it supposed to be Felix that was opposite Master Cylinder?

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"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

You're fairly young, Locke, so I don't want to risk indoctrinating you in any way. I warn you, therefore, that I am a Christian pantheist and I hold some very unconventional ideas, some of which are undoubtedly wrong. With that disclaimer, I can now give you my best guess about what philosophers call the problem of evil.

The12thMan makes a good point about free will, but the free will argument only goes so far in theodicy (justifying the existence of evil). An atheist could counter by asking why an all-powerful, theistic God could not create a universe in which there was simply no such thing as evil. After all, evil is by definition something against God's will, and so in the traditional way of thinking, if God created the universe, He must either have created evil and so not be perfect or there must be some creative power other than His, thus negating God's status as all-powerful.

The theist can correctly counter with the sweeping statement that if God is all-powerful, God defines good and evil, making the problem of evil irrelevant. However, in traditional theology, evil is said to exist. It is at this point that I reached an impasse in which I was forced to question the underlying assumptions of the theism vs. atheism argument.

The traditional theist sees the act of creation in terms analogous to psychology (the mind creates, while matter is neither created nor destroyed) but sees the processes of the universe as analogous to those of physical science (hence the compatibility of the laws of motion with the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition). I am now inclined to invert those analogies. I see creation as analogous to physical science in that I think that everything that is now always was and always will be. In a sense, of course, that negates the idea of creation itself, but that brings me to the second analogy. I think that the processes of the universe are comparable to those of the mind. In this way, creation becomes a process rather than an isolated act.

The image I now have of the universe (all that is) is that of a fragmented mind attempting to unite with itself. This would, if true, answer many questions. God exists in that an infinite mind exists (mind, by nature, is infinite), evil exists in so far as this mind may fracture, goodness is the union of this mind and finally the problem of evil can be solved by comparing the universe with the human mind: Just as your mind or mine can have conflicts with itself and yet be one, so can the universal mind, that mind in turn being God. I think that the increasing indeterminism of modern physics points to the universe being more "mental" than "physical". Of course, my ideas are so unconventional and held by so few people that I wouldn't discount the possibility that they are the products of my mental illnesses.

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"Some people complain about the system. The system is not good, so they can't do anything. It's an excuse. Freedom is in your heart." (Jin Xing)

I suggest you go back and read Genesis. Remember the tree of knowledge? Think about that especially how it reflects today...The tree of knowledge.

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I'll never Forget. To pull You Closer is to Pull You Down. Ignorence can be an envy. Applaud us as the old American Power goes quietly into the night.