In cruising thru this department of the BBS I find an awful lot of Christian threads here and even with a Muslim on board, not a thread on Islam on this page. Eh? Wazzuppwiddat?

Plus the one Muslim here hasn't said whether he's Shiya or Sunni, but this is in good Islamic tradition of one regarding the other as illegitimate; as theirs is regarded by self as the one true Islam, they're going to make you assume that, too, and as a result we all tend to think that all Muslims are of one uniform religion under the Koran, equating the Koran with The Bible as the sole reference book.

'Tain't so, folks.

Just like there was The Great Schism in Christianity, there was an analogous traumatic event in Islam which is said to have occured the moment Mohammed died--but it was a ticking timebomb that was triggered when Mohammed married Ayisha, then detonated once at the murder of the 3rd Calif, and went into total destruct at The Battle Of The Camel.

This schism is deeper and more intense in Islam than The Great Schism was for Christians, so remind yourself each time you talk over Islam with a Muslim, ask him/her which type of Muslim he/she is. It'll make a world of difference.

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You said:

Yes, there was a great schism like Christianity and this was promised to happen. Yes, it occured when Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) died. It was not triggered by his marriage to Ayesha(radiallahu anha). Yes, it was further "detonated" by the martyrdom of Uthman(radiallahu anhu) because of a Jew called Abdullah bin Saba who pretended to be Muslim. The Battle of the Camel was actually started by those people against Khalif Ali(radiallahu anhu).

However, the group called Khwarij(dissenters) existed during this time and they are the first to say that we must follow Qur'an only! Eventhough, this totally contrary to the teachings of Islam and this is why they are a SECT. They are the ones who assassinated Khalif Ali(radiallahu anhu) and not the Sunnis following Muawiyyah and/or Yazid. I believe Yazid was a drunkard who became leader and was responsible for the death of Hussein(radiallahu anhu). Since then the TRUTH of Islam retreated to Medinah and Mecca until the GREAT reformer of the Muslims appear. Retreated as to mean the foundation of the knowledge as been preserved at those places.

Hello and thank you for your response...however...one of the things I find in common with all people "of the book" is that they put a favorable spin on their own histories and I'm afraid that's what you've been forwarding here. Mohammed's marriage to Ayisha had significant political impications that gave rise to the dissenters in the first place. Mohammed did have a minor rival, but the marriage to Ayesha fueled that such that this rival's group grew....which is why I don''t regard any "forseeing" a split coming as anything more unusual than Mohammed simply noticing what was happening around him as the result of his actions, not the result of the action of any Jew. I say this is post-event spin because there's similar post-event spin on The Battle Of The Bridge, whose account I can find online but at significant variance with 3rd-party reports on the incident. Blame was placed on someone for The Bridge while ancient reporters reported that no-one was determined to be at fault. It's a cover-up blame game, for my money; the then-reported murderer of Uthman was an Egyptian.

Yes, The Battle of the Camel was actually started by those people against Khalif Ali, but those troops were led by Ayisha herself, inside a sedan atop the leading camel. Muawiyyah had intended to do battle with Ali but opted for an Islamic decision on the matter instead of fighting, yes, but that wasn't good enough for those that started that battle anyway--lead by Ayisha, I'd say it's Ayisha herself that had the biggest problem with such a peaceful solution as that. And perhaps Muawiyyah knew all along it would come to that, even as he made his offer, because it's his warloving drive that conquered all of N. Africa right up to southern Spain that laid the foundation for the Islamic Empire when he completed his travel.
The Koran directs one to follow the Hadiths when they weren't assembled as Hadiths until after Mohammed's death??? Ayisha's Hadiths, specifically?Quote me the passage, please, and I'd have to question if this was Ayisha altering the Koran to say so.

Yes, the murder of Hussein and his entire family tribe was a horrendous act which has served to sunder Shiya from Sunni further apart from each other...but Ayisha was no peacemaker, either.

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Let me try to make this short because my computer continues to cut off!

The issues of disputes were promised to happen and predicted by Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him). It does not matter about Abdullah Bin Saba but he did existed during that time period and he did had something to do with the rebellion against Khalif Uthman(radiallahu anhu). Yes, some Egyptians were included in the rebellion including other companions and Ayesha(radiallahu anha). But all this was predicted anyway. Khalif Uthman was right about his decisions and also to let you know that ALI himself had his two sons (Hasan and Hussein) guard the place of Uthman! So what does this tell you? It should tell you that Uthman and Ali were close allies and friends!

As for the Hadiths. The Qur'an itself is a collection of Authentic Hadiths. Back then before the Qur'an was in a Book form the hadiths and the Qur'an were followed by the early Muslims by heart and memorization. Read something about Hadiths:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...dith/atit.html

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html

The Hadith Qudsi are Authentic Hadiths but were not included in the Qur'an because it was not recited with Prophet Muhammad before he died when Angel Gabriel(peace be upon him) recited it with him twice. The reviewing recitation became the Qur'an.

Section about the Qur'an:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...i/061.sbt.html

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...a/015.mmt.html

What is needed now is reform in the Muslim world! Through this reform spiritually and intellectually the Muslims would eliminate the division and usher in a new era of responsible industrial production and space exploration.

This is my position.

You are speaking about the Khwarij or the early Shiyahs who worshipped Ali(radiallahu anhu) who were actually part of nationalistic pagan ideas? Both existed during that time and it may and strongly possibly derived from the HYPOCRITE camp(s). Just read the whole chapter on the Hypocrites in the Qur'an to understand this issue.

Oh, the idea that Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) only prophecied about near future events according to you is also FLAWED! he predicted future events a 100 and even 200 years after his time! So, I doubt that your position on this matter is solid because you have no evidence while I have the evidence for his future prophecies which happened they are located in the hadiths.

Ofcourse, it was not a just a Jew but a Zionistic Jew called Abdullah Bin Saba who was part of this rebellion. And just to let you know many Jews supported the Islamic state in the past especially in Spain and Portugal or the iberian penninsula and in Europe. Simply because they were being oppressed by the Pagan and/or Christian authorities. Plus, many Egyptian Copts were liberated by the early Muslim when they were being persecuted because they would not accept the Pagan Pauline Trinitarian concepts. Of course, it was not just Abdullah but others as well who were part or fooled into the rebellion.

To say that Aisha(radiallahu anha) fabricated hadith is far from the the truth! Let us look at a hadith which agrees with hers and let us see who is fabricating what:

From Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 646:

Narrated Aisha:

Allah's Apostle said, "The painter of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and it will be said to them, Make alive what you have created.' "

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 647:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

The Prophet said, "The painters of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and it will be said to them, 'Make alive what you have created."

***They both agree on this this means that the saying is AUTHENTIC! Eventhough, the chain of narrators is not present the result is the same. What the collectors of the Hadiths have done is collect all hadiths which are authentic and put it in one book form. So, if Ibn 'Umar(radiallahu anhu) sadi the same thing then Aisha(radiallahu anha) is not wrong or fabricating a hadith.***

She may have participated in the Battle of Camel but she repented later for this action and she admitted she was wrong. It does not mean because of her actions that we could not accept narrations from her because then we would not have the truth of Islam. Just like we nee any authentic report from Ali(radiallahu anhu) because any report from him that is authentic is part of Islam. Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) liked Ali(radiallahu anhu) and his two sons(radiallahu anhum) very much so we could certainly accept their narrations.

Here are some from Sahih Bukhari you will find the answer of the Battle of the Camel and that it was test for the early Muslims:

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 175:

Narrated Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said to us, "You will see after me, selfishness (on the part of other people) and other matters that you will disapprove of." They asked, "What do you order us to do, O Allah's Apostle? (under such circumstances)?" He said, "Pay their rights to them (to the rulers) and ask your right from Allah."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 179:

Narrated Usaid bin Hudair:

A man came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! You appointed such-and-such person and you did not appoint me?" The Prophet said, "After me you will see rulers not giving you your right (but you should give them their right) and be patient till you meet me."

olume 9, Book 88, Number 180:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard the truthful and trusted by Allah (i.e., the Prophet ) saying, "The destruction of my followers will be through the hands of young men from Quraish."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 182:

Narrated Usama bin Zaid:

Once the Prophet stood over one of the high buildings of Medina and then said (to the people), "Do you see what I see?" They said, "No." He said, "I see afflictions falling among your houses as rain drops fall."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 183:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Time will pass rapidly, good deeds will decrease, miserliness will be thrown (in the hearts of the people) afflictions will appear and there will be much 'Al-Harj." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is "Al-Harj?" He said, "Killing! Killing!" (See Hadith No. 63, Vol.

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 184:

Narrated 'Abdullah and Abu Musa:

The Prophet said, "Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which Religious ignorance will spread, knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and there will be much Al-Harj, and Al-Harj means killing."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 185:

Narrated Abu Musa:

The Prophet said, "Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and general ignorance will spread, and there will be Al-Harj in abundance, and Al-Harj means killing."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 186:

Narrated Abu Musa:

The Prophet said...(as above, 185). And Harj, in the Ethiopian language, means killing.

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 202:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "There will be afflictions (in the near future) during which a sitting person will be better than a standing one, and the standing one will be better than the walking one, and the walking one will be better than the running one, and whoever will expose himself to these afflictions, they will destroy him. So whoever can find a place of protection or refuge from them, should take shelter in it."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 204:

Narrated Al-Hasan:

(Al-Ahnaf said I went out carrying my arms during the nights of the affliction (i.e. the war between 'Ali and 'Aisha) and Abu Bakra met me and asked, "Where are you going?" I replied, "I intend to help the cousin of Allah's Apostle (i.e.,'Ali)." Abu Bakra said, "Allah's Apostle said, 'If two Muslims take out their swords to fight each other, then both of them will be from amongst the people of the Hell-Fire.' It was said to the Prophet, 'It is alright for the killer but what about the killed one?' He replied, 'The killed one had the intention to kill his opponent.'" (See Hadith No. 30, Vol. 1)

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 219:

Narrated Abu Bakra:

During the battle of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a Word (I heard from the Prophet). When the Prophet heard the news that the people of the Persia had made the daughter of Khosrau their Queen (ruler), he said, "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 220:

Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad Al-Aasadi:

When Talha, AzZubair and 'Aisha moved to Basra, 'Ali sent 'Ammar bin Yasir and Hasan bin 'Ali who came to us at Kufa and ascended the pulpit. Al-Hasan bin 'Ali was at the top of the pulpit and 'Ammar was below Al-Hasan. We all gathered before him. I heard 'Ammar saying, "'Aisha has moved to Al-Busra. By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter. But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 221:

Narrated Abu Wail:

'Ammar stood on the pulpit at Kufa and mentioned 'Aisha and her coming (to Busra) and said, "She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter, but you people are being put to test in this issue."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 229:

Narrated Abi Waih:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman said, 'The hypocrites of today are worse than those of the lifetime of the Prophet, because in those days they used to do evil deeds secretly but today they do such deeds openly.'

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 230:

Narrated Abi Asha'sha:

Hudhaifa said, 'In fact, it was hypocrisy that existed in the lifetime of the Prophet but today it is Kufr (disbelief) after belief.'

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 232:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established till the buttocks of the women of the tribe of Daus move while going round Dhi-al-Khalasa." Dhi-al-Khalasa was the idol of the Daus tribe which they used to worship in the Pre Islamic Period of ignorance.

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 233:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established till a man from Qahtan appears, driving the people with his stick."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 237:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established (1) till two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine, (2) till about thirty Dajjals (liars) appear, and each one of them will claim that he is Allah's Apostle, (3) till the religious knowledge is taken away (by the death of Religious scholars) (4) earthquakes will increase in number (5) time will pass quickly, (6) afflictions will appear, (7) Al-Harj, (i.e., killing) will increase, ( till wealth will be in abundance ---- so abundant that a wealthy person will worry lest nobody should accept his Zakat, and whenever he will present it to someone, that person (to whom it will be offered) will say, 'I am not in need of it, (9) till the people compete with one another in constructing high buildings, (10) till a man when passing by a grave of someone will say, 'Would that I were in his place (11) and till the sun rises from the West. So when the sun will rise and the people will see it (rising from the West) they will all believe (embrace Islam) but that will be the time when: (As Allah said,) 'No good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before, nor earned good (by deeds of righteousness) through its Faith.' (6.15 And the Hour will be established while two men spreading a garment in front of them but they will not be able to sell it, nor fold it up; and the Hour will be established when a man has milked his she-camel and has taken away the milk but he will not be able to drink it; and the Hour will be established before a man repairing a tank (for his livestock) is able to water (his animals) in it; and the Hour will be established when a person has raised a morsel (of food) to his mouth but will not be able to eat it."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 240:

Narrated Abu Bakra:

The Prophet said, "The terror caused by Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal will not enter Medina and at that time Medina will have seven gates and there will be two angels at each gate (guarding them).

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 241:

Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:

Allah's Apostle stood up amongst the people and then praised and glorified Allah as He deserved and then he mentioned Ad-Dajjal, saying, "I warn you of him, and there was no prophet but warned his followers of him; but I will tell you something about him which no prophet has told his followers: Ad-Dajjal is one-eyed whereas Allah is not."

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 245:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "No prophet was sent but that he warned his followers against the one-eyed liar (Ad-Dajjal). Beware! He is blind in one eye, and your Lord is not so, and there will be written between his (Ad-Dajjal's) eyes (the word) Kafir (i.e., disbeliever)." (This Hadith is also quoted by Abu Huraira and Ibn 'Abbas).

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 246:

Narrated Abu Sa'id:

One day Allah's Apostle narrated to us a long narration about Ad-Dajjal and among the things he narrated to us, was: "Ad-Dajjal will come, and he will be forbidden to enter the mountain passes of Medina. He will encamp in one of the salt areas neighboring Medina and there will appear to him a man who will be the best or one of the best of the people. He will say 'I testify that you are Ad-Dajjal whose story Allah's Apostle has told us.' Ad-Dajjal will say (to his audience), 'Look, if I kill this man and then give him life, will you have any doubt about my claim?' They will reply, 'No,' Then Ad-Dajjal will kill that man and then will make him alive. The man will say, 'By Allah, now I recognize you more than ever!' Ad-Dajjal will then try to kill him (again) but he will not be given the power to do so."

ook 041, Number 6924:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would not come until the Romans would land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq. An army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people of the earth at that time will come from Medina (to counteract them). When they will arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans would say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight with them; and the Muslims would say: Nay, by Allah, we would never get aside from you and from our brethren that you may fight them. They will then fight and a third (part) of the army would run away, whom Allah will never forgive. A third (part of the army). which would be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eye, would be killed ani the third who would never be put to trial would win and they would be conquerors of Constantinople. And as they would be busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, the Satan would cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your family. They would then come out, but it would be of no avail. And when they would come to Syria, he would come out while they would be still preparing themselves for battle drawing up the ranks. Certainly, the time of prayer shall come and then Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary would descend and would lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah would see him, it would (disappear) just as the salt dissolves itself in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely, but Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ).

From Sahih Muslim:
Chapter 12: THE CONQUESTS OF THE MUSLIMS BEFORE THE APPEARANCE OF THE DAJJAL
Book 041, Number 6930:

Nafi' b. Utba reported: We were with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in an expedition that there came a people to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) from the direction of the west. They were dressed in woollen clothes and they stood near a hillock and they met him as Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was sitting. I said to myself: Better go to them and stand between him and them that they may not attack him. Then I thought that perhaps there had been going on secret negotiation amongst them. I however, went to them and btood between them and him and I remember four of the words (on that occasion) which I repeat (on the fingers of my hand) that he (Allah's Messenger) said: You will attack Arabia and Allah will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack Persia and He would make you to Conquer it. Then you would attack Rome and AllgLh will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack the Dajjal and Allah will enable you to conquer him. Nafi' said: Jabir, we thought that the Dajjal would appear after Rome (Syrian territory) would be conquered.

Chapter 13: THE SIGNS BEFORE THE APPROACH OF THE LAST HOUR
Book 041, Number 6931:

Hudhaifa b. Usaid Ghifari reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to us all of a sudden as we were (busy in a discussion). He said: What do you discuss about? They (the Companions) said. We are discussing about the Last Hour. Thereupon he said: It will not cone until you see ten signs before and (in this connection) he made a mention of the smoke, Dajjal, the beast, the rising of the sun from the west, the descent of Jesus son of Mary (Allah be pleased with him), the Gog and Magog, and land-slidings in three places, one in the east, one in the west and one in Arabia at the end of which fire would burn forth from the Yemen, and would drive people to the place of their assembly.
Book 041, Number 6932:

Hudhaifa b. Usaid reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) was in an apartment and we were beneath that that he peeped in and said to us: What are you discussing about? We said: (We are discussing about the Last) Hour. Thereupon he said: The Last Hour would not come until the ten signs dppear: land-sliding in the east, and land-sliding in the west, and land-sliding in the peninsula of Arabia, the smoke, the Dajjal, the beast of the earth, Gog and Magog, the rising of the sun from the west and the fire which would emit from the lower part of 'Adan. Shu'ba said that 'Abd al-'Aziz b. Rufai' reported on the authority of Abu Tufail who reported on the authority of Abu Sariha a hadith like this that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) did not make a mention of (the tenth sign) but he said that out of the ten one was the descent of Jesus Christ, son of Mary (peace be upon him), and in another version it is theb lowing of the violent gale which would drive the people to the ocean.
Book 041, Number 6933:

Abu Sariha reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was in an (upper) apartment and we were standing lower to him and discussing (about the Last Hour). The rest of the hadith is the same, and Shu'ba said: I think he also said these words: The fire would descend along with them where they would land and where they would take rest (during midday (it would also cool down for a while). Shu'ba said: This hadith has been transmitted to me through Abu Tufail and Abu Sariha and none could trace it back directly to Allah's Apostle (may peace b.. upon him). However, there is a mention of the descent of Jesus Christ son of Mary in one version and in the other there is a mention of the blowing of a violent would drive them to the ocean.
Book 041, Number 6934:

Abu Sariha reported: We were discussing the Last Hour) that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) looked towards us. The rest of the hadith is the same and the tenth (sign) was the descent of Jesus Christ son of Mary, and Shu'ba said: 'Abd al-'Aziz did not trace it directly to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him).

My delay in replying is due to the necessity for a carefully considered response here, given the entirety of what you posted. For right now, suffice it to say that although you still haven't answered my question as to whether you yourself are Shiya or Sunni, I now have seen sufficient slant in your posted response to guess that you are Sunni.

Please stand by for a more detailed response, thank you.

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All of a sudden, the software is disallowing me the option to edit my message, which I need to edit to add that I've just come back from looking at the other threads and see where you directly explain that you are Sunni, and I therefore wish to retract my guess.

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