I'm technically an agnostic because I know only that I don't know a lot.
I take a Buddhist-like methodology to spiritual matters... but I'm not well-studied on Buddhist writings and know only the basics of the philosophy.
I'm still "culturally Christian" to an extent, because my morality is most shaped by Western Christian morals. I hold the love-based morality above all... but somehow I differ from most Christians a lot and believe in practically none of their metaphysical beliefs.
I make guesses about metaphysics like everyone else, based on experience and reason and more than a little wishful thinking. I do not claim any of these beliefs to be scientific and try to avoid making such guesses about things I think science can help us understand better.

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"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

Genesis 9:6:
“Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God, He made man.”

Exodus 21:12:
“He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death.”

Leviticus 24:17
“Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death.”

Numbers 35:31
“Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death.”

Deuteronomy 19:19-21
“Then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”

Is that because only true Christians “look the other way” when they see controversial scripture? Or that only true Christians do not acknowledge these strict Old Testament barbaric rules.... but instead, soften up New Testament interpretations of:

Romans 13:1-4

“Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.”

Acts 25:11
“For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.” – Paul

1 Peter 2:13-14
“Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.” – Peter



...and again...you’d have to “look the other way” when Jesus was being crucified on the cross next to the two murderers. The one murderer turns to Jesus, repents, and acknowledges that he righteously deserves his punishment; if Jesus was against capital punishment for murderers, he would TOLD the man that he did not deserve this punishment, but will still “be with me in paradise."


He said: when your enemy hits one side of your cheek, offer him the other side. I do not apply this generality to all situations, but instead to the personal/anger/retaliation of someone offending me. Considering 9/11, I do not think Jesus would have said: “Well, they took out buildings on the East Coast and killed 3,000 innocent people, let’s forgive them and offer them the West Coast.

Yes, Love your Enemy, but Hate Evil. Saving innocent lives requires the forces of good to respond to the forces of evil.

No he wasn’t talking about afterlife punishment; the afterlife was never even brought up before the murderer said those lines. The three were beaten and suffering on the cross for a while before these lines took place. The one murderer mocked Jesus: “This man can save other people but he cannot save himself” “If you are the son of God, save yourself” “etc”....and the other looked at Jesus and said “we (the murderers) deserve this punishment, but he (Jesus) does not”....this was in the act of beating, nails through hands and feet, and preparations for the final blow. He wasn’t talking about afterlife consequences; he was talking about the overall punishment for committing murder. And he knew Jesus didn’t commit murder and didn’t deserve that punishment.

Paul and Peter seemed to think that if you love God and hate Evil, that it’s justified to let the governing authorities punish criminals accordingly, Acts 25:11 and 1 Peter 2:13.

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"A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away."

The Solution for Illegal Immigrants (Gray areas discussed throughout the thread)

In this war for instance we have killed about 600,000 people most of them innocent.....we lost about 3,000 innocents (and about 3,500 soldiers). So who do you think Jesus would think is evil? There has to be a line where killing innocents of another country is not worth the lives of people here, I'm sure many disagree with this.

Don't we make our enemies out to be evil? What enemy has the US had in the last 100 years that wasn't made out to be evil?

My whole point in this thread was that Christians try to manipulate the Bible to their liking....just as you have. You can find passages to mean anything. I read the bible years ago and thought it be peaceful and not to support war. I think Christians manipulate the Bible to mean what they want just as many Muslims manipulate the Koran to mean what they want, MUSLIMS DO IT A LOT WORSE THOUGH.

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Most people think Great God will come from the skies But if you know what life is worth You will look for yours on earth And now you see the light You stand up for your rights

“I feel sorry for your mother” – Grocery Store Guy, Don’t Be a Menace in South Central While Drinking Your Juice in the Hood.

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"A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away."

The Solution for Illegal Immigrants (Gray areas discussed throughout the thread)

You don't think women and children are innocent?

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Most people think Great God will come from the skies But if you know what life is worth You will look for yours on earth And now you see the light You stand up for your rights

In that story about the murders I can see the point that murdering is wrong but I think it goes deeper and that killing is wrong. If you look at other quotes of Jesus he talks about how "killing is wrong" even in your quote he says "killing".

To try and prove my point here are some quotes from Jesus from these 2 web pages.
http://quotes.zaadz.com/Jesus
http://www.christian-wisdom.com/jesu...-category.html

He who rules his spirit has won a greater victory than the taking of a city.

Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God

"John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you? - that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you (pl.) always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man. Now, therefore, lift up your face, that you may receive the things that I shall teach you today, and may tell them to your fellow spirits who are from the unwavering race of the perfect Man."

The kingdom of heaven is spread out across the earth, only people don't see it

"If you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"

"While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, 'Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?' On hearing this, Jesus said, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.'"

"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. "

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Most people think Great God will come from the skies But if you know what life is worth You will look for yours on earth And now you see the light You stand up for your rights

As has been previously stated, there are two words meaning "kill" in Greek, the original language of the Gospels. One of them means "to kill," in the sense of justified death, as in the death penalty or a just war. The other means "to murder." Jesus uses the first word every time he quotes from the Sixth Commandment or talks about it.

When Jesus met the Roman centurion (our sergeant-major), he never suggested that he leave the army. When the soldiers spoke with John the Baptist, he didn't tell them that soldiering was wrong, either.

The main point of Christianity is that you should love your neighbor as yourself; Jesus even says this is the most important part of the Law, next to "Love the Lord your God." This does not mean condoning your enemy's actions, for God does not want us to reduce at all our hatred of evil things. It also does not mean that the man should not be punished, or even killed. However, you should act against the sins, not the sinner. The man sentenced to death should be killed not out of hatred, but out of a sincere desire to remove evil from the world. In the same way, a war should not be fought out of anger or revenge, but out of a wish to see evils stopped.

And that is one thing that I can say for the United States. Despite the mismanagement of the current war, our country has a history of fighting for just causes. We have a national conscience and, occasionally, we listen to it.

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Men of England, heirs of Glory,
Heroes of unwritten story,
Nurslings of one mighty Mother,
Hopes of her, and one another;

Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many - they are few.

- Percy Shelley, "The Masque of Anarchy"

WormChancellor: I like your post a lot definitely gives more insight into the gray area between killing and murder. I think a lot of this comes from what you believe in your heart.

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Most people think Great God will come from the skies But if you know what life is worth You will look for yours on earth And now you see the light You stand up for your rights

One thing inhuman graph-promoters think is that violence is the essential enemy of 'good' but it isn't just as Violence is not essentially the tool or counterpart of evil. Violence is only a struggle or reaction. The Kinetic theory of gas is an assertion of ultimate chaos. In plain words, Chaos was the law of nature; Order was the dream of man....The Church alone had constantly protested that Anarchy was not order, that Satan was not God, that pantheism was worse than atheism and that Unity could not be proved as a contradiction.

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I'll never Forget. To pull You Closer is to Pull You Down. Ignorence can be an envy. Applaud us as the old American Power goes quietly into the night.

Of course they believe in killing people. Had Jesus warriors not went around the world killing all that do not believe back in the dark ages, Christianity wouldn't be as wide-spread as it is today.