Don't get bent out of shape about the topic, please.

I am probably going to get flamed pretty bad for this post but I do not intend it to be mean or anti religious in any way, here it goes:

I am not really a religious person. I believe there is probably a higher power but I don't believe in organized religion(I have no real problem with it either). From what I have read of the different religions I believe in Buddhism the most but wouldn't call myself Buddhist. I believe faith should be something you figure out on your own and take the best parts you like, not to have only one taught to you. That being said....

I find it strange that Christians continue to break their first Commandment. They always seem to write it off as something else though. Jesus was a loving person who never meant anyone physical harm (at least nothing I have read) he seemed to always turn the other cheek instead of fighting. He was killed for his beliefs and he did not fight or struggle with the men who killed him. I understand he is the son of God so he knew he could come back but shouldn't that teach that killing is wrong no matter what the circumstances?

The midwest states which are largely practicing Christians send a high percentage of their population into the military. I don't understand how you teach killing is wrong but then promote war and military service. And not only do they teach that it is wrong but that it's a mortal sin.

The Christian churches has manipulated the bible and the Commandments to mean a lot of things, for instance gays are bad, blacks are bad, masturbation is bad, etc. etc. but I can't remember them ever standing up and saying no to a war. Is it that they think murder is ok if it's a person from another country? Or do you think their country is above their God?

I am not writing this to be flamed although I am pretty certain it will happen. I am just asking why Christians don't seem to adhere to their First Commandment and then twist the rest to fit their agenda?

If they do it for safety? Why? If they know they are going to heaven does it matter if someone kills them? If they retaliate and kill someone they commit a mortal sin and go to hell forever. So I would think most devout Christians would choose the first? If not, Why?

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Most people think Great God will come from the skies But if you know what life is worth You will look for yours on earth And now you see the light You stand up for your rights

95% of most Christians will refer to these two versus to justify their belief in killing humans. (Execution, war, self defense, and now pre-emptive war)

Matthew 21:12
"Jesus entered into the temple of God, and drove out all of those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the money changers' tables and the seats"

Overthrowing the tables, is seen as an act of violence. And if its good enough for Jesus....

Matthew 26:52
"for all who draw the sword will die by the sword"

If you base your beliefs off a book and how you interpret those passages, you can come to believe anything and justify anything.

The KKK are hardcore Christians.

Ixtellor

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George W. Bush "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building"

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

Matthew 10:34-39
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Amos 5:15
Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.


Commandment #6: Thou shall not murder.


Murder is an unlawful killing. There are ‘just’ killings. Capital Punishment for murderers is one of the few commandments that are written in all five Books of the Torah (first five books of the Bible).

Jesus also acknowledged this when he was on the cross with the two other murderers. The one criminal confessed that they committed the crime and that they are righteously receiving their punishment, but the other didn’t express regret and he didn’t repent, so Jesus only turned to the one criminal and said: “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

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"A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away."

The Solution for Illegal Immigrants (Gray areas discussed throughout the thread)

Both great posts.

DeadCenter:
I under stand your logic for capital punishment.

Is there any logic to innocents caught in the middle of a fight?

I guess repentance is probably the answer to this question.

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Most people think Great God will come from the skies But if you know what life is worth You will look for yours on earth And now you see the light You stand up for your rights

so exactly how would you like to kill me?

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And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

Not all killing is murder.

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Read this post quick before the mods delete it!

What?

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Theodore Lamar Heiks
BA, History/Political Science, Western State College, 1984
MBA, Entrepreneurship/Marketing, City University, 1993

I'm a Christian who is opposed to the war in Iraq and to the death penalty. No Christian who understands the meaning of their professed religion supports killing any defenseless person. It is true, though, that certain leaders of all religions distort the meaning of their professed faiths. They are the Pharisees of modern times.

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"Some people complain about the system. The system is not good, so they can't do anything. It's an excuse. Freedom is in your heart." (Jin Xing)

I don't bother myself with such questions anymore.
Actually I only bothered myself about it when I was a Christian and shortly thereafter.
Of course not all killing is murder.
I was always more concerned with Christians accepting greed, being unforgiving and judgemental, often unmerciful... And I was always amazed by the Calvin-inspired reversal of the camel-needlehole analogy that seemed to make it much easier for the rich to accomplish this feat than the poor... The ideals of humility, self-sacrifice, and acting good toward other people seem to have left mainstream Christianity.
As did I. Can't say that I blame those virtues for leaving.

But I'll give what were my interpretations of the "justifying scripture" in my Christian days:
This is more an act of civil disobediance and of reaction against greed and the blasphemous use of religion for gain than an act of violence. Jesus hurt no one. He acted more like a protester than a warrior.
What I find interesting in today's world is that Christians seem to revere those who use religion as a money-maker as "leaders" and as great capitalists to boot. Shouldn't they be tossing them out of the temple?
In my opinion, this verse more sets up the tradition of protest and civil action that is common amongst evangelicals... though these days the evangelicals are far too married to political agents and stuck on less worthy causes than they once were. Thank Jerry Falwell for that (speaking of people using religion for gain).


I always took this to be a symbolic interpretation of something like karma. In other words, people get what's coming to them, if not in this life then in the next.

He was not talking about holy war. He was talking about the seperation of the "righteous" from the "wicked". A man and a wife would lie in the same bed and only one would be taken... that kind of stuff. Adherents to the cult were expected to give up their possessions and leave their families behind if necessary. They were to be hated and killed by those who found them disruptive... not the other way around.

But Jesus said to love your enemy. He said to turn the other cheek. The New Testament said that you are to let the wicked continue being wicked and let the righteous continue being righteous.


It's true. Not all killing is murder. But in context, it appears that Jesus took a much stronger stance on killing. The Cathars were true Christians. That's why they're dead.
The Amish are lucky to live in a country that tolerates and protects them.


He was talking about the afterlife punishment in this case.
Capital punishment is simply assumed in the bible, as it was the norm. The bible seems to claim it justified... but does not say that it is good... at least not in the New Testament.

I was always struck by the huge differences between the God of the Old and New Testaments. And even more struck by the varied interpretations of the scriptures.
It just goes to show, a well-written religion can justify anything and survive the times regardless of the stance of the people at any given time.
Christianity's survival was dependent on its adaptability. If it had not been adaptable it would have died a cult before becoming the Universal Roman religion. If not, it would have died when people tired of holy war and corruption. And if not, it would certainly be dead today.

Organized religion is an exercise in rationalization and perceptive gymnastics.

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"It's never over... BOY!"
The Tall Man, Phantasm III

Great post Java.

Out of curiosity do you believe in spirituality? I'm guessing Buddhism?

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Most people think Great God will come from the skies But if you know what life is worth You will look for yours on earth And now you see the light You stand up for your rights