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Thread: Do Protestants Really Believe in the Bible?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackrook View Post
    That's really a final fort of last resort which happens just before total surrender to faithlessness.

    I've heard that many Protestant ministers openly admit they don't believe in God.
    http://bible.cc/luke/2-14.htm

    LUKE 2:14

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    "Glory to God in highest heaven, and peace on earth to those with whom God is pleased."

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!”

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased."

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

    International Standard Version (©200
    "Glory to God in the highest, and peace on earth to people who enjoy his favor!"

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    “Glory to God in Heaven, and upon earth peace, Good News to the children of men.”

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    "Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those who have his good will!"

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

    American King James Version
    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

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    Luther started his little effort because the Catholic Church had strayed from the Bible. Since then, things might have changed, but Luther certainly was closer to the Bible than the Catholic Church at the time. The counter reformation happened because even the Catholics figured they had strayed too far.

    Feel free to say today's protestants do whatnot, I don't know the modern difference well enough, but Luther was the Bible thumper of his time, not the Catholics.
    A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

  4. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackrook View Post
    Martin Luther, who by the way had no special access to the truth, just made up a bunch of untrue doctrines and got millions of people to believe it. But the Bible is the source of truth, not Martin Luther.
    The holy spirit is the source of all truth. It is the spirit which guides the Church to the truth(John 16:13).

    There are ways to get your point across, but I can see how some people would take offense to your thread. Of course protestants read the Bible. Some verses they are just unaware of,
    For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
    -Malachi 1:11


    But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.

    -Edmund Burke

  5. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackrook View Post
    Martin Luther could have worked within the church and reform it from the inside. Many good men chose to do that during the Counter-Reformation.

    But Luther was a prideful man so he split from the Church, leading to an era of chaos and violence and hatred from which Europe never fully recovered.
    Yes, he could of. Martin Luther's split with Rome tore Christendom asunder. Many secular rulers wanted Luther to recant his beliefs solely on the simple fact that if he split with Rome, he would destroy the unity of European civilization, and this is exactly what happened. 100 years of war. It should be stressed however, that the Avignon Papacy had severely weakened the Church. After the Papacy finally returned to Rome, successive Popes became focused on rebuilding the glorious city of Rome. The entanglement of the Church in "worldly affairs" caused them to neglect their spiritual duties. Luther made an appeal to Pope Leo X, but it was largely ignored.

    It should be noted, that there where reform movements prior to the Protestant Reformation, but without the support of the Popes, they failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by montra View Post
    Work within the church, eh?

    Maybe he should have requested a personal meeting with the Pope......before they tore off his cloths and burned him at the stake!!

    He did, and no, this they didn't burn him at the stake. This is nonsense made up by Fox's book of martyrs.

    Quote Originally Posted by prospect View Post
    Do you think the disciples ate his real body and drank his real blood ? They ate bread that he called his body. They drank wine that he called his blood. "In remembrance" of him ..
    Luther was certainly much closer to Catholic beliefs on transubstantiation than most protestants these days. Luther believed in consubstantiation. The main difference being in consubstantiation is that while there exists the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, he shares it with the bread.

    I would suggest reading John Chapter 6. on the matter.


    Schisms happen.. The first one being the East–West of the Catholic. That was inevitable. The Bible is the source of truth -sola scriptura -[/QUOTE]

    The Catholic Church's relationship with the Orthodox is very different than with Protestant communities. The big difference being that the Orthodox, just like Catholics still believe in the seven sacraments, which means they still have validly ordained clergy. The Orthodox still believe that Christ is in the Eucharist. In fact, if you a Catholic is trying to go to church, and there are no Catholic Churches in the area, he/she may go to an Orthodox Church for Mass(granted if the Orthodox Priest at that particular parish will let you). A Catholic can't do this with any Protestant Church.

    The source of all truth is the holy spirit. The Church was not founded on any written document. Jesus before he left this earth told commanded them to go out and preach the things I have tought you.
    For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
    -Malachi 1:11


    But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.

    -Edmund Burke

  6. #15

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    Do you?

    Isaias 13:21
    sed requiescent ibi bestiae et replebuntur domus eorum draconibus et habitabunt ibi strutiones et pilosi saltabunt ibi

    Isaias 34:14
    et occurrent daemonia onocentauris et pilosus clamabit alter ad alterum ibi cubavit lamia et invenit sibi requiem

    Psalmi 21:22
    salva me ex ore leonis et de cornibus unicornium exaudi me

    Isaias 34:7
    et descendent unicornes cum eis et tauri cum potentibus inebriabitur terra eorum sanguine et humus eorum adipe pinguium

    Isaias 14:29
    ne laeteris Philisthea omnis tu quoniam comminuta est virga percussoris tui de radice enim colubri egredietur regulus et semen eius absorbens volucrem

    Oh btw...


    Can you even read your bible?
    Last edited by Ctrl; Dec 24 2011 at 06:58 AM.
    For any constraint within a system, there are an infinite number of potential corrections.

    Quote Originally Posted by mngam View Post
    I read that Zimmerman may change his name to Benghazi so the media will leave him alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by zbr6 View Post

    ...cause panties.

  7. #16

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    Again, having been raised Roman Catholic in the 'old days,' my main problem with the church is the separation of the ppl from a direct relationship with God by having 'priests' as their go-betweens. The whole priesthood is a take over from the OT Jewish faith and the Law, where only the priests were allowed to offer sacrifices and were in stead of the individual person. And ONLY the High Priest could go behind the temple veil to 'meet' with the Ark of the Covenant; whereas, the veil in the temple was 'rent in twain' at the crucifixion & death of Jesus Christ, who is called 'our High priest (per the scriptures).

    And if one asks the typical Catholic (I would agree that the several outspoken ones on this forum seem to be more of the 'exception') why they shud go to heaven, most will give the 'works answer---I'm a good person, go to church every week, follow the sacraments, go to confessions, etc. I.e. they are trusting in 'their church' to get to heaven; as opposed to most considered as Protestants, will give a 'saved by grace thru their faith in the cross and in Christ as their substitution for the redemption of their sins.'

    We ALL know that one is saved by faith and not of one's own good works; and that good works will follow salvation just as a good tree bears good fruit. But the typical Catholic is never assured of their salvation, must jump thru many 'hoops' to get to heaven, and is still living under the OT Law (10 Commandments) of Moses. One who is truly 'saved' shud NEVER have to question their salvation! "These things have been written that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."

    If priests are seen as pastors, shepherds, overseers, counselors, etc. then I have no problem with them fulfilling those offices in the Body of Christ.

    Here are some 'old school' principles that I grew up with:

    1) Catholics were told NOT to read the Bible as it was too complicated, but shud stick with studying the Catholic Catechism (the book containing Catholic doctrines)

    2) My family didnt get a Bible until I was in HS (and my Mother was considered a 'good Catholic'). It (leather cover, 4" thick with gold edged pages, and many beautiful pics of early Christian paintings) sat out in the open on our coffee table, never read, and the only rule was NOT to put anything on top of it!

    3) Priests were set apart & looked upon as being above the laymen and honored as the Holy apostolic reps of God (prior to all the pedophilia events). I see all believers as 'disciples' (those 'disciplined' after Jesus Christ), of which 'the 70' were sent out under Jesus ministry, and of equal standing in the kingdom of God.

    4) I said the Mass in Latin as an altar boy and could not touch the host, only the priest could. I believe today, laymen can serve the Eucharist (?).

    5) My Missal had several 'indulgences' in it, that I used to say over & over to build up my 'account' in Purgatory when I went there--pretty much all Catholics would go there on their way to heaven to pay for their unconfessed 'venial sins.'

    6) They had just started 'Guitar Masses' when I left, and I have heard that they also have since added 'Charismatic Masses' (open to the 'Gifts of the H.S.') in many churches.

    7) We prayed the Rosary often, some Masses were strictly praying the Rosary, which were 'repetitive prayers, often repeated while thinking of other things. Scripture says, "Do not pray as the heathen do, who think they will be heard because of their many words."

    These are just a several things that I experienced as a Catholic boy, and am curious how things have changed since those days...
    Last edited by OverDrive; Dec 24 2011 at 07:21 AM.

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swensson View Post
    Luther started his little effort because the Catholic Church had strayed from the Bible. Since then, things might have changed, but Luther certainly was closer to the Bible than the Catholic Church at the time. The counter reformation happened because even the Catholics figured they had strayed too far.

    Feel free to say today's protestants do whatnot, I don't know the modern difference well enough, but Luther was the Bible thumper of his time, not the Catholics.
    I hardly think that changing the Bible, ripping books out, and adding words to support a false doctrine is being closer to the Bible. Luther added the word "alone" to "faith" to support his "faith alone" heresy. The only place in the Bible where you find the words "faith alone" in scripture is when James asserts that a man is saved by works and NOT faith alone. But that's ok because Luther was just as willing to tear James from the Canon, as well as Jude, Revelation, and Hebrews and the Deuterocanonical books...anything that disagreed with his doctrine which was clearly more important to him than what the Bible says.

    So you want to try again?
    Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel
    St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
    May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly hosts, by the power of God,
    thrust into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post
    Again, having been raised Roman Catholic in the 'old days,' my main problem with the church is the separation of the ppl from a direct relationship with God by having 'priests' as their go-betweens.
    I have to prove over and over that you don't know anything about the Catholic Church and never did. Priests don't come between people and God, they bring people closer to God through the eucharist, the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and encouraging prayers and devotions. I feel closer to God every time I go to Mass or even talk to a priest in the confessional. You are so off base.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post
    The whole priesthood is a take over from the OT Jewish faith and the Law, where only the priests were allowed to offer sacrifices and were in stead of the individual person. And ONLY the High Priest could go behind the temple veil to 'meet' with the Ark of the Covenant; whereas, the veil in the temple was 'rent in twain' at the crucifixion & death of Jesus Christ, who is called 'our High priest (per the scriptures).
    And "per the scriptures" the priesthood remains continually (Hebrews 7:3) The levitical priesthood was trumped by a more ancient and superior priesthood according to the order of Melchizadek of which Christ is high priest forever. The priesthood of the Catholic Church follows according to this order and has since the early church. It's a Protestant fantasy that thinks the priesthood is abolished entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post
    and if one asks the typical Catholic (I would agree that the several outspoken ones on this forum seem to be more of the 'exception') why they shud go to heaven, most will give the 'works answer---I'm a good person, go to church every week, follow the sacraments, go to confessions, etc.
    Because that's exactly how we'll be judged, by our works:

    Revelation 20:12
    And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

    Just because you Protestants have a way of explaining away the clear meaning of Scripture does not make Catholics wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post

    I.e. they are trusting in 'their church' to get to heaven; as opposed to most considered as Protestants, will give a 'saved by grace thru their faith in the cross and in Christ as their substitution for the redemption of their sins.'
    Only Protestants see the wares of salvation as either/or. We don't divide the Church against Christ because the Church is the bride of Christ. God doesn't save lone rangers, he saves his Church:

    Acts 20:28Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

    Ephesians 1:22And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,

    Ephesians 5:29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.

    It's to the Church we must submit ourselves:

    Matthew 18:17And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

    And when we sin, we offend not only God, but the holy Church:

    1 Corinthians 11:22What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.

    1 Corinthians 15:9For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    And finally, the Church is the foundation of truth, the chosen vessel of revelation ordained for our sanctification:

    1 Timothy 3:15but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post

    We ALL know that one is saved by faith and not of one's own good works; and that good works will follow salvation just as a good tree bears good fruit. But the typical Catholic is never assured of their salvation, must jump thru many 'hoops' to get to heaven, and is still living under the OT Law (10 Commandments) of Moses. One who is truly 'saved' shud NEVER have to question their salvation! "These things have been written that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."
    Only Protestants separate faith and works. Faith without works is dead. There is no salvation apart from works because works cannot be separated from faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post

    1) Catholics were told NOT to read the Bible as it was too complicated, but shud stick with studying the Catholic Catechism (the book containing Catholic doctrines)
    Catholics are told to read thoroughly both the Bible and the CCC. You're wrong as usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post

    2) My family didnt get a Bible until I was in HS (and my Mother was considered a 'good Catholic'). It (leather cover, 4" thick with gold edged pages, and many beautiful pics of early Christian paintings) sat out in the open on our coffee table, never read, and the only rule was NOT to put anything on top of it!
    Funny, every Catholic home I'm ever in has a Bible very handy and in a conspicuous location. Do you really think your rash generalizations will not be scrutinized?

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post

    3) Priests were set apart & looked upon as being above the laymen and honored as the Holy apostolic reps of God (prior to all the pedophilia events). I see all believers as 'disciples' (those 'disciplined' after Jesus Christ), of which 'the 70' were sent out under Jesus ministry, and of equal standing in the kingdom of God.
    "prior to all the pedophilia events?" What are you talking about? Should we strike up a conversation about "all the pedophilia events" in Protestant churches? What the hell does that have to do with this conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post

    4) I said the Mass in Latin as an altar boy and could not touch the host, only the priest could. I believe today, laymen can serve the Eucharist (?).
    The Eucharist is given to laymen taken either by hand or in the mouth. This hardly desecrates it.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post

    5) My Missal had several 'indulgences' in it, that I used to say over & over to build up my 'account' in Purgatory when I went there--pretty much all Catholics would go there on their way to heaven to pay for their unconfessed 'venial sins.'
    What a terrible thing to teach people to make deposits in a heavenly bank account!

    Matthew 6:20but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post

    7) We prayed the Rosary often, some Masses were strictly praying the Rosary, which were 'repetitive prayers, often repeated while thinking of other things. Scripture says, "Do not pray as the heathen do, who think they will be heard because of their many words."
    Repitition is called for in scripture in regards to prayerful petition. This was the main point of the Parable of the Unjust Judge, a point clearly lost on you. Jesus was teaching against the vain prayers of the heathen, a part you left out of your paraphrase.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverDrive View Post

    These are just a several things that I experienced as a Catholic boy, and am curious how things have changed since those days...
    I've demonstrated yet again that you do not and never have understood the Catholic Church. Like most boys, you probably slept, goofed off, or spaced out your catholic upbringing, but like most Protestant "raised catholics" that doesn't stop you from speaking authoritatively on what you think the Catholic Church teaces.
    Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel
    St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
    May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly hosts, by the power of God,
    thrust into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen

  10. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintmichaeldefendthem View Post
    I have to prove over and over that you don't know anything about the Catholic Church and never did.

    Just because you Protestants have a way of explaining away the clear meaning of Scripture does not make Catholics wrong.

    Funny, every Catholic home I'm ever in has a Bible very handy and in a conspicuous location. Do you really think your rash generalizations will not be scrutinized?

    The Eucharist is given to laymen taken either by hand or in the mouth. This hardly desecrates it.

    What a terrible thing to teach people to make deposits in a heavenly bank account!

    Repitition is called for in scripture in regards to prayerful petition.

    I've demonstrated yet again that you do not and never have understood the Catholic Church. Like most boys, you probably slept, goofed off, or spaced out your catholic upbringing,
    but like most Protestant "raised catholics" that doesn't stop you from speaking authoritatively on what you think the Catholic Church teaces.
    Again St. Mike, you are running amuck with your name calling in trying to discredit my 'actual experiences' as I qualified as 'old school' Catholicism. Christened at birth, 1st Communion, Confirmation (my confirmation name is 'Martin' after my stand in neighbor), altar boy, 2 yrs Latin in HS, and 4yrs of CYO/CYC in HS.

    I politely asked for an update of some of the things that I grew up 'practicing' and you go charging off a cliff in defense of what apparently has changed and is 'modern day Catholicism.' It is the Roman Catholic doctrine that has changed, not the scriptures and NOT my many years of experiences as a Catholic boy/teen.....put what I said in it's perspective and realize that what you are practicing today is NOT what I grew up with in some respects...And, regardless of your 'vain words,' my experiences were and are valid!

    You'd better hit the confessional, Mike.....you're righteous indignation is but in vain, for per scripture, "The anger of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God."
    Last edited by OverDrive; Dec 24 2011 at 09:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackrook View Post
    I've heard that many Protestant ministers openly admit they don't believe in God.
    Really? Would you care to provide a couple of verifiable examples of this?
    That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.....

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