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Thread: What is a fact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    Incorporeal, you needn't trust anyone. I suggest that you repeatedly measure the melting point of water yourself. This is an experiment that can be done at home. All you need is some water in a container, a freezer*, and a suitable thermometer. Make sure that the container contains both ice and water when you measure the temperature. Remember to put the thermometer into the icy water long enough to get consistent results.

    Have fun checking Giftedone's claim.

    * A heater works too if you live in a region with ambient temperatures a few degrees below 0°C.
    I don't need a measuring stick to tell me that water is frozen. When I see that it is frozen, then I know that the weather is cold enough to warrant the use of a winter jacket. If I see the water in the trays of the freezer is frozen, then I know that I can use that frozen water to aid in cooling down other liquids and solid objects. Practical testing through observation and practical application of the results of my experiment and observation. Whatever arbitrary number is assigned to that frozen water is irrelevant. If the water is frozen, then the water is frozen.

    As for the other posters 'claim'... not to worry. That other poster has not proven any of the claims that he has made on this forum or on this thread. He is an imposter who is imposing on the subject of intelligence.
    "THOUGHT. The operation of the mind. No one can be punished for his mere thoughts however wicked they may be. Human laws cannot reach them, first, because they are unknown; and, secondly, unless made manifest by some action, they are not injurious to any one; but when they manifest themselves, then the act, which is the consequence, may be punished. Dig. 50 16, 225."

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  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Giftedone View Post
    That is far too logical and would involve reasoning. IC will stick to the claim that the freezing point of water is arbitrary because the numbers on the termperature scale were arbitrarily chosen.

    When boxed into a corner by sound reasoning otherwise .. IC will quickly turn the tables and start accusing his adversary of claiming that the freezing point of water is arbitrary.

    When the adversary points out the lie by reposting the evidence... "prove it prove it" will be the response and the adversary will be accused of lying, and being in denial.
    If you plant an apple seed, is that seed going to produce cucumbers? The same holds true with the arbitrary numbers on the thermometers. They cannot produce anything but more arbitrary numbers.
    "THOUGHT. The operation of the mind. No one can be punished for his mere thoughts however wicked they may be. Human laws cannot reach them, first, because they are unknown; and, secondly, unless made manifest by some action, they are not injurious to any one; but when they manifest themselves, then the act, which is the consequence, may be punished. Dig. 50 16, 225."

  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorporeal View Post
    I believe that the Bible is true and real.

    Does the statement above constitute a fact?
    Assuming you do actually believe the bible is true and real. It's a factual statement about your belief if the statement is true. However, the statement "the bible is true and real" would be an opinion.

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone View Post
    Assuming you do actually believe the bible is true and real. It's a factual statement about your belief if the statement is true. However, the statement "the bible is true and real" would be an opinion.
    However, the bold and underlined text is not what I said. I said that "I believe that the Bible is true and real." Big difference. My belief is not based on an opinion. . . it is based upon my personal experience in dealing with (working, using, learning from) that Bible and its contents.
    "THOUGHT. The operation of the mind. No one can be punished for his mere thoughts however wicked they may be. Human laws cannot reach them, first, because they are unknown; and, secondly, unless made manifest by some action, they are not injurious to any one; but when they manifest themselves, then the act, which is the consequence, may be punished. Dig. 50 16, 225."

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Giftedone View Post
    Do you think a person that can not understand that the freezing point of water does not change when repeatedly measured under the same experimental conditions qualifies as a person capable of reason ?



    The freezing point that someone might conclude from the experiments or the individual measurements? Either may change depending on the precision and uncertainty of the experiment.
    Henry George's theories were based on land ownership and how far a business was from a public resource like a mill or waterway. The man lived and died a decade before the model T was produced much less modern transportation and communication. Not only did Henry George never hear of the Internet, he barely lived long enough to see the electric light. Applying the theories of Henry George to modern nations is about as risky as letting the most brilliant caveman design your next airport.

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorporeal View Post
    However, the bold and underlined text is not what I said. I said that "I believe that the Bible is true and real." Big difference. My belief is not based on an opinion. . . it is based upon my personal experience in dealing with (working, using, learning from) that Bible and its contents.


    Many opinions are based on personal experience. Anyway, I don't think anyone is questioning whether or not your believe something. Most are just observing that whether you believe something and whether that thing is true are different questions. The fact that you do believe it, does not make it a fact that what you believe is true.
    Henry George's theories were based on land ownership and how far a business was from a public resource like a mill or waterway. The man lived and died a decade before the model T was produced much less modern transportation and communication. Not only did Henry George never hear of the Internet, he barely lived long enough to see the electric light. Applying the theories of Henry George to modern nations is about as risky as letting the most brilliant caveman design your next airport.

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorporeal View Post
    However, the bold and underlined text is not what I said. I said that "I believe that the Bible is true and real."
    The first two sentences responded to that statement. The third sentence was about a related alternative, to provide context and clarification. Basic reading comprehension is involved in understanding that, so I am not surprised you had difficulty.

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorporeal View Post
    If I see the water in the trays of the freezer is frozen, then I know that I can use that frozen water to aid in cooling down other liquids and solid objects.
    That is not true. The result depends on the temperature of the other liquids or solid objects. For example, if they're colder than the ice, they will get warmer when brought into contact with the ice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorporeal View Post
    Practical testing through observation and practical application of the results of my experiment and observation. Whatever arbitrary number is assigned to that frozen water is irrelevant. If the water is frozen, then the water is frozen.
    The interesting part are the relations in between temperature and other physical quantities. That's where the exciting stuff happens and practical questions get answered.

    What happens when salt is sprinkled on an icy road? Will it always melt the ice? Under what conditions doesn't it work anymore?

    How should a new thermal power plant be designed? Is it worth the risk to do no physics and number crunching? Who would invest millions into uninformed guesswork with a high risk of building a piece of junk?

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    That is not true. The result depends on the temperature of the other liquids or solid objects. For example, if they're colder than the ice, they will get warmer when brought into contact with the ice.
    Which part is not true? If I see the water is frozen, the water is frozen; Irregardless of what the alleged temperature of the surrounding items are. IF THE WATER IS FROZEN, THE WATER IS FROZEN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    The interesting part are the relations in between temperature and other physical quantities. That's where the exciting stuff happens and practical questions get answered.

    What happens when salt is sprinkled on an icy road? Will it always melt the ice? Under what conditions doesn't it work anymore?
    The water gets salty. "it" never could melt the ice, because "it" is just a word. Under what conditions does what not work anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    How should a new thermal power plant be designed?
    Either on paper (unlikely) or else with the use of a CAD system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    Is it worth the risk to do no physics and number crunching?
    People do that all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Herby View Post
    Who would invest millions into uninformed guesswork with a high risk of building a piece of junk?
    The same ones who currently do the investing in such things as the Challenger which went up in a cloud of smoke and flames. The same ones that funded the construction of the bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, killing thousands and doing bodily and psychological harm to hundreds of millions more. Tax payers and of course private investors who had a vested interest in the development of such WMD's.
    "THOUGHT. The operation of the mind. No one can be punished for his mere thoughts however wicked they may be. Human laws cannot reach them, first, because they are unknown; and, secondly, unless made manifest by some action, they are not injurious to any one; but when they manifest themselves, then the act, which is the consequence, may be punished. Dig. 50 16, 225."

  11. #400

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorporeal View Post
    I believe that the Bible is true and real.

    Does the statement above constitute a fact? If 'yes', then what 'fact' is established by that statement? If 'no' then explain why the statement is not a 'fact'.
    What is a fact to me? It is that I am quoting what I am reading on the screen of this computer.

    .
    Last edited by kowalskil; Feb 26 2012 at 04:30 AM.
    Ludwik Kowalski, the author of a FREE ON_LINE book,

    “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.” The link is:

    http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

    This autobiography illustrates my evolution from one extreme to another--from a devoted Stalinist to an active anti-communist. This testimony is based on a diary I kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

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