No matter what anyone says, you can't get matter from "nothing". Even the super dense mass which began the whole thing, had to come from somewhere. No one can say they know, because this is a truly impossible contruct to prove in a lab. So, it's a theory. Just because someone has the ability to suggest the existance of a thing, doesn't mean its the truth.

So, choose what you have faith in, wisely.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

usgrant, what are the specifics in scripture that make it so hard for god fearing people to accept evolutionary theory?

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No, I think evolution has plenty of proof supporting it. But when you're talking about refuting specific claims of IC, one does not need to prove a given evolutionary path in order to prove that a given structure is not, in fact, irreducible.

Agreed. See above.

Again, I think you tend to ignore the powerful math favoring such an occurrence: Trillions of interactions a year across billions of years.

Agreed. Science is a human institution, can do that sometimes. But it's far less prone to it than faith-based arguments.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

I am enjoying this discussion. I got to spend a few hours with the 12thSon and he pleaded with me not to talk about science. Oh well, we talked politics instead.

JMS, I don't fear God. I think many scientists do though.

I am not on the side of suppressing the natural curiosity of kids by restricting the discussion of possibilities. It's actually very easy for me. I don't expect kids to be "saved" in science class. Neither do I think it's possible that one will go to hell because the teacher was not allowed to discuss the possibility of creation. Science and God are not mutually exclusive.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

i think you assume too much, 12th. lol, my question wasnt even for or about you.

science and god are not mutually exclusive. i agree there. although, im not religious, so thats my perspective. im sure others would disagree, because some have made a great effort to belittle science just to downplay evolutionary theory.

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I wasn't attempting to answer your question. I merely pointed out what I believe is a misuse of the words "God fearing".

"A great effort to belittle science just to downplay evolutionary theory" needs further explanation. I see many people belittling religion, but belittling science?

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

its not misuse (if it were directed at you, perhaps). many believe because they fear the consequences of disbelief. the penalty is pretty grave.

belittle as in redefine it so its no longer credible. in the context of the thread topic. addressing a religion as a religion isnt belittling it. im not sure if youre talking about this thread or the forum in general.

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I was talking about everyone in general, (not limited to the forum or the thread) as I assumed you were also.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

we love God. What a novel idea. Maybe there's a reason why evangelicals fear God??????

Anyway, quite idiotic to simply type over the word creationism and not expect anyone to notice. I guess God just wasn't in their corner.

Why is this debate still going on?

Are usgrant and others suggesting that because scientists are momentarily unable to prove I. Complex parts in flaggelum (sp?) are the direct result of evolutionary processes, that we should just assume it proves "god?

usgrant keeps bringing up bizarre scenarios to "prove" his case.

Neutron Stars are extremely dense.

Have we proven that in a labratory? No.

The exact mass of neutron star cores has been calculated, but have we ever tested it in a lab? no.

Dembski and the other ID guys are all pushing a religious agenda. They searched and searched and searched, and finally found something that evolution can not easily explain.

That does not prove the existance of god. It doesn't mean he doesn't exist, but it certainly does not prove he does.

Its just a momentary gap in the science.

ID people want to throw in the towel, the scientists want to use "science" to solve the question.

Ixtellor

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George W. Bush "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building"

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.