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Old 02-12-2008, 05:31 AM
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It's where WHOSE religion gets to intermingle with politics that imposition on the unwilling begins.
Indeed. I lived for ten years in Utah, and at the time was an evangelical Christian. It was decidedly uncomfortable at times because the mormon faith was so interwoven into EVERYTHING.

The biggest concern I had, as a parent, was how I would raise my children to have their own distinct worldviews according to our own faith when they were surrounded on all sides and in every way by a faith that I did not consider "true."

I mean, for instance, school prayer takes on a whole new light when you realize that your daughter will be one of the few non-Mormons in the class, and that she has even learned to pray in a different way/style. Whose way is "right"? Whose way is imposed on everyone else?

And if you are one of those in the minority, how would you feel?

I'll tell you, living in Utah definitely changed my views on Church/State separation.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:47 AM
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Sorry, but the current intermixture of religion and government have resulted in laws which violate the Free Exercise part of the First Amendment in that they prohibit the Free Exercise of traditional Mormonism and Islam, just to mention a few.

If you think that the intermingling of religion and state isn't an imposition, you're kidding yourself.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:52 AM
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It's not much different in the Southern Bible Belt, though....

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Originally Posted by catzmeow View Post
Indeed. I lived for ten years in Utah, and at the time was an evangelical Christian. It was decidedly uncomfortable at times because the mormon faith was so interwoven into EVERYTHING.

The biggest concern I had, as a parent, was how I would raise my children to have their own distinct worldviews according to our own faith when they were surrounded on all sides and in every way by a faith that I did not consider "true."

I mean, for instance, school prayer takes on a whole new light when you realize that your daughter will be one of the few non-Mormons in the class, and that she has even learned to pray in a different way/style. Whose way is "right"? Whose way is imposed on everyone else?

And if you are one of those in the minority, how would you feel?

I'll tell you, living in Utah definitely changed my views on Church/State separation.
Those who intermingle church and state invariably invade the bedroom, determine that only Protestant churches are to be intermingled with state, often to the exclusion of Catholics, Orthodox, and other Christians. They form coalitions which bully out secular charitable organizations too; where I live, there are only Protestant thrift shops but not a single Disabled American Veteran thriftshop and Goodwill Industries was just booted out not long ago. There is no Deseret nor any St. Vincent De Paul's anything, not even a food bank.
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:44 AM
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That's it, exactly. The difficulty lies in taking off the blinders of the majority so that they can realize that what is happening to others could someday happen to them, if that wall is not maintained.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:17 AM
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I say separation fo state and religion(not church--too specific).

When you start mixing the two, you will end up with what the Europeans had for centuries...theocratic governments(whether with a king or not).
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:32 PM
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As one of nature's uber-cynics, I believe we should let politics and religion interbreed as much as the participants wish.

Here's why:

1. Politics always overpowers religion, it's built into the system,

2. It's fun to watch the religionists flirt with the politicians,

3. It's fun to watch the religionists squirm when they discover they've been used, raped, and plundered by the political system,

4. There is always a political backlash when religion in politics begins to smell like 3-day old fish, and

5. It's heartwarming to see Coyote's Law #760* vindicated. . .again.

* - Coyote's Law #760: "Religion is God's Promise that religionists shall never rule the world."
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catzmeow View Post
Indeed. I lived for ten years in Utah, and at the time was an evangelical Christian. It was decidedly uncomfortable at times because the mormon faith was so interwoven into EVERYTHING.

The biggest concern I had, as a parent, was how I would raise my children to have their own distinct worldviews according to our own faith when they were surrounded on all sides and in every way by a faith that I did not consider "true."

I mean, for instance, school prayer takes on a whole new light when you realize that your daughter will be one of the few non-Mormons in the class, and that she has even learned to pray in a different way/style. Whose way is "right"? Whose way is imposed on everyone else?

And if you are one of those in the minority, how would you feel?

I'll tell you, living in Utah definitely changed my views on Church/State separation.


Very scary story. Its very dangerous specially when its mandatory to doctrinate kids in schools.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:33 PM
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Coyote, it's not kind to have your fun at the expense of people who have to put up with religionists trashing government. Government has to function, ya know.

No empire has ever existed without using religion as a tool; invite religion into government and you have ruthless, megalomanaiacal empire that invariably collapses under its own unrealistic ideological flab. You'll love mixing state and religion only if you're fond of Dark Ages.
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:22 PM
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Separation of Church and State is entirely a fabrication of the judicial branch. They basically pulled it out of their ass.

The quotes from founding fathers that supposedly support the separation of Church and State are frequently incomplete or taken out of context. The Founders did not have a problem with religion in government. They only had a problem with the state supporting a specific religion.
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Old 02-14-2008, 07:24 PM
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No empire has ever existed without using religion as a tool
It goes even beyond that, to the basic concepts of democracy and fairness.

I am an atheist. But I am NOT the majority. Why should my views supersede the majority of the voting population? How is that fair?

If theists want the ten commandments displayed in a courthouse, and the majority of the population in that area is Christian, who am I to deny it to them? How is it harming me?
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