I've seen no evidence of any kind that religious people are more moral, in total, then non-religious people. I know plenty of very moral religious people and plenty of far less moral religious people. America claims to be amongst the most religious countries on Earth. Far more than Europe. So any decline in values doesn't appear to be linked to people being less religious here. It must be something else.

__________________
Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?

I strongly disagree.

The greatest demographic in terms of growth right now are single Mothers w/ children.

This is a direct reflection in a culture's value system.

We will pay the price for this as a culture.

Values start with the Family.

Its funny when my dad died at 91yrs last year, he was in the emergency room with an oxygen mask over his face.

The nurse started to ask me the questions they ask to admit name, age, I answered for him, she then asked Religion, my Dad moved the mask smiled at me and said "no thank you nurse, I am an Athiest"

He about one hour latter told the doctors he had been poked and prodded for the last 5yrs he wanted no more indignities done to him and no ressusitation, I saw to it his wishes were carried out. he died soon after.

We cremated him, with people just standing up and saying what they thought about my Dad, his wish was for just my brothers me and my mum to be there, and for no mumbo jumbo, about 300 people came to pay respect to himimg019.jpgHard Man and a good boxer.

Most of whom will claim to be Christian if asked.

I agree. Never said different. But it has little to do with religion. Consider that 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock. Yet surveys show blacks claim to be more religious than whites (although both groups in America overwhelmingly claim to be religious). Now don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming religion for that. I'm just saying it's simply not a factor in them getting knocked up. It makes no difference whether they are or are not religious. So it must be some other factor.

__________________
Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?

Christians are far more likely than atheists to be part of groups that work hard to instill values about being good to other people, and having good relationships. The teachings of the Bible emphasize values such as honesty, love, forgiveness, patience, and generosity. Many of these values are not emphasized in social circles dominated by atheists.

Definitely not reflected by most christians. Look at those who are the most racist, most homophobic, less tolerant of offshoot groups, most vocal of wars, most destructive of the earth.

__________________
America's Enemies Are Not Mine

All wars represent a failure of diplomacy

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts.

61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill

Regimes which outlawed religion.

You are comparing being against homosexual marriage to murdering someone who follows a faith.

first and foremost. those numbers are way overblown.
Second Communist Russia allowed religion in 1941.
Third Communist China has many religions including Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism...and many more.
Fourth, ask any atheist if they support what happened in Communist China and the Soviet Union.

__________________
America's Enemies Are Not Mine

All wars represent a failure of diplomacy

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts.

Hear, hear.

This is it, exactly. In real life, when the topic of religion comes up, I am largely silent. The only exception is when it's just the kids and I. In spite of the fact that I NEVER push my non-religious views on anyone, ever, in real life, it is constantly pushed on me, whether it's co-workers, neighbors, or others.

Let me just suggest, believers, that if you are talking about someone who lives in the U.S., there is practically a church on every corner. If I wanted it, I know where to go. If a person does not attend church, it's because he/she is not interested.

p.s. I also hate Mary Kay, Pampered Chef, and other pyramid schemes.

__________________
Job 13:5 (New International Version)
If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom.

As a single mother with children, let me just point out that I am single because my Christian ex-husband could not keep his penis in his pants. Apparently, no matter how many pews he sat his ass in, no matter how many prayers he prayed, no matter how many bible verses he crammed down my throat, no mtter how holy he pretended to be, God couldn't help him with this problem.

I totally agree with you, but why don't you start with the people who are in your church, FIRST. Because, as a longtime church attender (birth to age 36) and sunday school teacher (age 22-35), I notice that the churches aren't dealing with infidelity any better than the heathens are.

And truthfully, Herk, this claim doesn't hold much water with me.

__________________
Job 13:5 (New International Version)
If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom.