Ah. See, when they're Christians killing people, they're "loudmouths." When they're Muslims, they're "mass murderers."

I do agree that Middle East terrorists are currently the champs in killing people. But Al-Qaedians tend to come from very fundamentalist sects of Islam; they're a small minority within the religion. And their motivation has less to do with religion than it does with local culture.

Which is why your average American Muslim is no more likely to kill someone than you or I. And has a much greater respect for free speech and tolerance than anyone living in Waziristan, Christian or Muslim.

Eric Rudolph.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortio..._United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortio...rtion_violence

Are you really this ignorant of the actions of people professing your own faith? Yet you expect Muslims to not only know of every such act, but to give credence to the idea that it actually reflects on them, rather than being the actions of a few criminals or "loudmouths."

Ah, so here we get to the core of the matter. Never mind that the Bible is filled with horrific violence, slavery, polygamy, etc. My favorite is God sending bears to kill children who made fun of one of his prophets. Or God giving the Jews permission to kill everyone in Judea so they can have the land.

You wouldn't want to be held accountable for everything in the Bible. So why do you hold Islam accountable for everything in the Quran? (though I'll wager that the lines you're referring to, if they exist, are either now interpreted allegorically or come from a hadith, not the Quran).

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

I am an agnostic, and frankly don't care for any religion, but I do care about freedom of speech. You troll this thread with calling someone a bigot, think again, this is about murdering someone for the speech, and there should be no tolerance of that.

To answer the first part of your snipe, you name the person that murdered the feces artist, since you brought it up. I said no one has harmed him.

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Cheney is the second executive officer to shoot someone in the face and chest. Clinton was the first.

If that's your standard, no one has harmed the Danish cartoonists, either.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

How many "Westboro Baptist Church nutjobs" have killed people and how many people have they killed?

You don't consider killing 3000 innocent people in a morning 'mass murder'?



Which faith have I professed?


Tell me again how many Christians are engaged in killing non Christians simply because they are not Christians?

Muslims quote the koran and use it as the justification for the relentless and continued murder of non muslims. It isn't just a few misguided radical extremists, the number is staggering and your comparison of islam with Christianity is a banal attempt to deflect the true evil of islam as well as attempt to excuse it.

Do you think the feces artist is in hiding with security like the Dutch artist, and Danish news paper? Think again;

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/382

“This type of democracy is worthless for Muslims. Muslims will never accept this kind of humiliation. The article has insulted every Muslim in the world.”

Such a peaceful group, why would anyone want to live in a place that has freedom of speech.

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Cheney is the second executive officer to shoot someone in the face and chest. Clinton was the first.

That's not the point. The point is that you don't hold Christians to the "denounce them or you agree with them" standard.

Sure do. I just don't blame an entire religion for the actions of a few fundamentalist nutjobs from benighted regions of the planet.

Sorry. Irrelevant to my point anyway.

Hmm. Are you claiming that the 9/11 terrorists attacked us simply because we are not Muslim? I think you'd be wrong. And I *further* think you can't use that to explain why they're killing Iraqis and Afghanis. And Jordanians, Algerians, Pakistanis....

I notice, too, that you're simply ignoring my links to examples of Christian violence, and my point that nobody expected Christians to take to the streets to denounce such.

Just admit it: You have a double standard when it comes to Islam.

*Some* Muslims do that. Just like *some* Christians (Army of God) use the Bible to justify murder, while others (WBC) use it to justify hatred of homosexuals.

Yes it is.

What is that number, pray tell? And how do you arrive at it? And how is it "staggering" when set against a backdrop of a billion Muslims worldwide?

To be clear, I'm not comparing Christianity to Islam. I'm simply noting that you have a double standard, expecting Muslims to do things that you do not require of Christians.

As with any religion, there is a range of interpretation and practice within Islam. There are the relatively peaceful interpretations of Western Muslims and various Islamic sects, and there are the more medieval interpretations of other areas and in particular certain fundamentalist sects.

Islam is actually even more diverse, which is both a strength and a problem. It does not have a strong central church handing down dogma, like Christianity does. It does not have a tradition of talking issues to death, like Jews do. Instead, every street-corner scholar can issue his own interpretations and fatwas. Certain interpretations become mainstream by being accepted by large groups of Muslims. But you can pretty much always find a fatwa to suit whatever your purpose is.

I think the Middle Eastern branch of the family is badly in need of a Reformation, and is roughly where the Christian church was 600 years ago. Christians tamed the more violent chapters of their holy book and learned not to wage war for religion, but it took centuries of religious warfare to learn that lesson.

At this point in history, far more violence is being done by Muslims than by Christians. But the Western practice of Islam shows that Islam is not inherently violent, and I think in time there will be a Reformation, driven by those Western interpretations. Islam as a whole will shed its medieval origins and emerge as a fully modern religion.

It's simply our misfortune to be living through its adolescence.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

How can a newspaper hide? And the artists, while some still live under police protection, are not in hiding.

But that's not my point. I've already agreed that it's unacceptable to kill people for disagreeing with you or insulting you. The artists should not have had to go into hiding. People should not have died in riots.

The *only* disagreement I have with you is your insistence on blaming an entire religion for the problem. And your insistence on holding nonWestern cultures to Western standards of behavior. I agree that people everywhere *should* learn to value and respect free speech; I just don't know how you can expect someone raised with absolutely no tradition of free speech to suddenly start doing so.

Relatedly, you complained that you had not seen Muslims protesting terrorism, implying that they should be doing that.

I not only provided a long list of examples of Muslims protesting terrorism, but I also pointed out that you (and Billy Bob) are holding Muslims to a double-standard.

If you'd stop with the wild-eyed Islamaphobia, I could agree with you.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

I agree not every muslim is a terrorist or a murderer, but I would bet you that if all of the western democracies began repeatedly mocking mohammed, and islam, you would have the entire muslim world wanting to be suicide bombers, and that squelches our freedom of speech.

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Cheney is the second executive officer to shoot someone in the face and chest. Clinton was the first.

Freedom of speech is a modern construct. It exists in countries with functioning democracies and it is valued there. It is not a universal right nor is it a universal value and it's culturally arrogant to make that assumption. When people have far more urgent requirements - like survival - freedom of speech becomes less urgent.

Paltry? Like I thought. Nothing would be good enough for you.

Of course - voices speaking out against terror are far less attention getting (ie - media worthy) then terrorists sawing off heads with rusty knives.

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I'm a leftwing fascist, disease spreading, devil worshipper!

Simple mathmatics. Statements and views of leading Muslim clerics and leaders. Polls conducted among Muslim countries and populations. It's not rocket science.

Lets see....what is it...one incident in Spain...one incident in the US...one incident in Britain...wow...statisticaly significant.

Just for comparison...how many in Iraq...Afghanistan...?

Israel is in a constant state of war and most terrorist incidents occur in relation to the unresolved Palestinian situation.

See above.

Only if you have a strong bias to begin with.

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I'm a leftwing fascist, disease spreading, devil worshipper!