Muslim outrage? NOT!!!! - Page 5

halla · #41 (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 07:51 PM

Quote:

There were hundreds of thousands of terrorists? (*)(*)(*)(*). We're outnumbered.

the nature of terrorism and its asymmetric behavior make 'numbers' of less importance. the terrorist will prove that the dominant power cannot protect its civilians and thus is impotent.

halla · #42 (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

The Christian religion and doctrine has been used to justify horrendous bloodshed and slavery.

lest we forget the secularists/atheists:

democide/death by government:
china 1949-87 76,702,000
ussr 1917-67 61,911,000

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

Coyote · #43 (**permalink**) 02-13-2008, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halla

that statement is an expression of ignorance.

let us juxtapose statements by Mohamed and Jesus as a testament that the "koran isn't much better"

It doesn't matter what they say - it only matters what people think they say. In other words - results, not words.

You also neglect (as do many) the many expressions of peace, justice, and co-existance that also exist in the Koran. Like the Bible it's extremely contradictory at times.

A study looked at violence in holy books and compared the Bible with the Koran. The Koran was marginally more violent. Both books promote and involve a great deal of bloodshed, vendettas and murder on behalf of a angry vengeful erratic diety.

You just don't hear the plethora of excuses from Muslim apologists like you do from Christian apologists.

Coyote · #44 (**permalink**) 02-13-2008, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halla

let us juxtapose statements by Mohamed and Jesus as a testament that the "koran isn't much better"

I'd be happy to:

Matthew 10: 34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Quran 9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever you find them, take them and besiege them and prepare for them every ambush.

OR

(Matthew 5:38-42) You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

(Quran 4 1:34-5) "Good and evil deeds are not alike, Requite evil with good, and he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend, but none will attain this attribute save those who patiently endure; none will attain it save for those who are truly fortunate"

Coyote · #45 (**permalink**) 02-13-2008, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halla

lest we forget the secularists/atheists:

democide/death by government:
china 1949-87 76,702,000
ussr 1917-67 61,911,000

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

Who's excusing them?

Fundamentalist ideologies (whether religious or not) have been used to justify a number of atrocities. However your statement is somewhat intellectually dishonest. China and USSR - while athiesm was a part of their political ideology - did not commit their atrocities on behalf of athiesm but rather, enforce a totalitarian state.

BroncoBilly · #46 (**permalink**) 02-13-2008, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coyote

It doesn't matter what they say - it only matters what people think they say. In other words - results, not words.

You also neglect (as do many) the many expressions of peace, justice, and co-existance that also exist in the Koran. Like the Bible it's extremely contradictory at times.

A study looked at violence in holy books and compared the Bible with the Koran. The Koran was marginally more violent. Both books promote and involve a great deal of bloodshed, vendettas and murder on behalf of a angry vengeful erratic diety.

You just don't hear the plethora of excuses from Muslim apologists like you do from Christian apologists.

So according to your own statement on action over words, and since most all the terror in the world today is brought to the victims of terror, assaults by islam striking the infidels, please list all of the terror brought forth in the name of Christianity.

Your comparisons are asinine at best, try to stay on topic slick, this thread isn't about Christianity, it is about freedom of speech not embraced by muslims.

Bobcat1 · #47 (**permalink**) 02-13-2008, 07:46 AM

I found this interview of Wafa Sultan, a former Muslim woman whom you may have seen on YouTube speaking out against Islamist extremism. This part has a bearing on the discussion:

Quote:

FP: Are Islam and democracy compatible?

Sultan: As of yet they are not. Liberal democratic societies adhere to and grant equal rights to all regardless of religion, gender and race. It also separates religion from state. Islam is both religion and state.

Regarding human rights, women are not equal to men. Non Muslims are not equal to Muslims. In the ideal Islamic dominating world, non-Muslims are to be regarded and treated as dhimmi; second class citizens with particular rulings.

FP: What is the appropriate response to the threat of Islamic totalitarianism?

Sultan: First, the west must recognize that Islam is viewed by the majority of devout Muslims not merely as a religion but also as a political ideology of domination. Therefore it should not be treated by the west as a religion only. I have been told numerous times by the Muslim community where I live, that they are here to spread Islam and replace the American Constitution with the Islamic Sharia. One member flatly told me; “wait and see that America will soon collapse.” This is precisely why when 9/11 happened I was shocked but not at least surprised.

Up to February 2006 when my Al Jazeera interview took place, I felt the need to educate only the Arab audience with whom I have been sharing my writings on the issue of Islam. But then, following the interview, through gaining experience during speaking engagements and by being exposed to western audiences, I found out that unfortunately the west also suffers a lack of awareness about the realities of Islamism.

The west must thoroughly understand the Arab mindset. For example, our Arab society follows the Islamic eschatology which does not necessarily value and respect the present life, but equally revere life after - in paradise. Additionally, our concept of time is significantly different from that of the west. There is an Arabic proverb stating that “the Arab man took revenge after 40 years because he was in a hurry…” It highlights the notion that Muslims have the patience to slowly but surely achieve their objective for Islamic domination.

Ignorance is not a choice when dealing with this matter. The west must recognize that Islamism has no place in a liberal democracy and in open societies.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...6-E0B1A9E391A7

Coyote · #48 (**permalink**) 02-13-2008, 08:09 AM

There's differing views on Islam and Democracy and whether the two are compatible.

Quote:

Can Islam and Democracy Coexist?
Brian Handwerk
for National Geographic News
Updated October 24, 2003

Saudi Arabia recently announced that it would hold elections for municipal council positions. The Saudi embassy in Washington, D.C., heralded the news as part of the kingdom's reform agenda and echoed an address by King Fahd last May in which he vowed to "broaden popular participation in the political process."

The eventual scope of Saudi reform remains to be seen, and the reasons driving such a decision are debatable. Yet even a small step towards democracy in the conservative kingdom raises eyebrows as questions reemerge about the future of participatory government in the Islamic world. How compatible are Islam and democracy, and under what conditions do the two thrive together?

A Matter of Perspective

Louay Safi, a member of the board of directors of the Washington, D.C.-based Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy (CSID), has spent a lot of time thinking about the pairing of Islam and democratic forms of government. He sees a good fit.

"I think that Islam as a set of norms and ideals that emphasizes the equality of people, the accountability of leaders to community, and the respect of diversity and other faiths, is fully compatible with democracy. I don't see how it could be compatible with a government that would take away those values."

Yet throughout the Islamic world there are those who paint the two as at odds. Columbia University professor Richard Bulliet, who specializes in the history of the Middle East and other Islamic nations, feels that most of those presumptions are grounded in anti-U.S. and anti-West sentiment.

"Some of the people who say that democracy has no place in Islam, what they really express is a sense that the word 'democracy' as presented in international discourse appears to be wholly owned by the West," he said. "The word itself has, for some, a connotation of cultural imperialism. If you talk about representative government without the baggage of these institutions in the U.S., but on more idealistic grounds, then it makes perfectly good sense to a lot of Muslims. The idea of citizenry participating in government is, particularly within Sunni Islam, sort of a bedrock theory."

Bulliet adds, however, there is a minority that simply doesn't agree that democracy is right for Islam. "There are people who support the idea that Islam should be an emirate, that there should always be a ruler—the Taliban for example," he said. "You do have people who feel that autocracy is intrinsic to the Muslim system, and some of those people are on the violent side but some of them are not."

Self-government does have some roots in the Islamic world. Safi explains that historic Muslim societies were more representative than their modern counterparts because the central state was not as powerful. "I would argue that Muslim society was a society where communities had some control of their own affairs. There was more decentralization of power. The central government was mainly focusing on issues of law and order or security. There was a lot of liberty for individuals to negotiate many of the norms and rules within their own communities."

Safi feels that a historic mistrust of central authority, bolstered by post-colonial experiences with oppressive central governments, could spark Muslim societies to seek more participatory governments with weaker national authority

Rest of article here: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...democracy.html

Coyote · #49 (**permalink**) 02-13-2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroncoBilly

So according to your own statement on action over words, and since most all the terror in the world today is brought to the victims of terror, assaults by islam striking the infidels, please list all of the terror brought forth in the name of Christianity.

Your comparisons are asinine at best, try to stay on topic slick, this thread isn't about Christianity, it is about freedom of speech not embraced by muslims.

You've taken it beyond "freedom of speech". Don't pretend otherwise in an attempt to avoid discussion.

This thread is about extremism and you refuse to entertain relevant observations concerning similar extremism in other religions in an attempt to paint a one-sided view of Islam.

And of course, anyone who disagrees is an "apologist".

BroncoBilly · #50 (**permalink**) 02-13-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coyote

You've taken it beyond "freedom of speech". Don't pretend otherwise in an attempt to avoid discussion.

This thread is about extremism and you refuse to entertain relevant observations concerning similar extremism in other religions in an attempt to paint a one-sided view of Islam.

And of course, anyone who disagrees is an "apologist".

Why don't you try answering the question, name the terror brought forth in the name of Christianity.

There is nothing magical about the question, or are you going to deflect with some more of your comparison drivel?

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