Actually this is a particular instance, if one reads the context around this verse -- not a commandment by God. Even when it was written it was in the past tense.

In regard to the Canaanites, which was so long ago that little or nothing is known of them, it is clear that the "commandment" to kill them all was not followed, as they are mentioned later in on in the Bible, and Jews clearly intermarry with them.

Jews seem to have failed to follow the 'word of God' in ' many of these particular respects ; and in fact would hold those who did so ( ie murdering adulterers, stoning misbehaving children, executing someone for homosexuality) to a standard of law such that he would be imprisoned. Thus they cannot be said to be laws for the Jews. In fact, I am not aware of these laws ever having been actually executed, are you?

Yet the encouragements for Muslims from the time of Mohammed to wage war against the infidel.... which started in the mid-600's ....seem to be going strong today. In fact, it could be suggested that the Muslims have regressed. They have had close to 1400 years to progress, and they had the benefit of both Jewish Law and Christian scripture to build on.

Chronicles and Leviticus were written when?? Chronicles around 450 and Leviticus was written between 1440 and 1400 B.C. 3500 years since Leviticus... 2000 years since Jesus.... 1300+ years since Mohammed..... 1400 years between Leviticus and the "New" Testament... It is high time for an Islamic "New" Testament, if you ask me, except they don't seem to be heading in that direction ...

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"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

It is written with approval, and clearly God approved, because Asa is specifically described as having God supporting him, and the reward was 35 years of peace.
http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Chron/2Chron_15.htm

Followed or not, it was a commandment.

I suspect they were executed, to some extent or another, fairly regularly 4,000 years ago. It's not like the social code described there would have been unusual for its time.

I agree that modern Jews and Christians ignore such passages. My point is, if Jews and Christians can ignore the hyperviolent commandments of their scripture, why should I believe it's impossible for Muslims to do so?

They're still 600 years younger than Christianity and thousands of years younger than Judaism. You could have said the same thing about Christianity in the Middle Ages -- when the 1,400-year-old religion of Jesus was the basis for countless, endless wars and massacres.

Throw in the (IMO) backwards medieval cultures in the Middle East and the completely screwed up political situations there, it does not surprise me that such areas have difficulty overcoming an atavistic interpretation of Islam.

But the example of the West and other parts of the world show that a peaceful, modern Islam is, in fact, possible.

Agreed. Except that I think when you look beyond the Middle East, this new Islam you speak of is already being written.

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It actually sits there and is totally different in tense and style. Every verse but this one is narrative. There is not one verse of follow-up on this. If 2 Chronicles was written around 400-450 BC as thought, it was written some 500 years after this narrative, as Asa's reign was ~ 911 BC-870. "The Chronicler (whether one person or a school) viewed himself as an interpreter of the past and used history to make moral points." [1] It is clear that that is the voice of the Chronicler making his own point.

Also, the implication of your words are that God gave Asa a reward (35 years of peace) in exchange for killing the unbelievers. I don't think the verses uphold your interpretation.

8. And when Asa heard these words and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he strengthened himself and removed the abominations from all the land of Judah and Benjamin and from the cities that he had captured from Mount Ephraim, and he renewed the altar of the Lord, which was in front of the vestibule of the Lord.
9. And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin and those dwelling with them from Ephraim and Manasseh and from Simeon, for many of Israel had defected to them when they saw that the Lord their God was with them.
10. And they gathered to Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of Asa's reign.
11. And they sacrificed to the Lord on that day of the plunder [that] they brought; cattle, seven hundred, and sheep, seven thousand.
12. And they entered the covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their forefathers, with all their heart and with all their soul.
13. And whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, shall be put to death, from the smallest to the greatest, whether man or woman.
14. And they swore to the Lord with a loud voice and with shouting, and with trumpets and with shopharoth.
15. And all Judah rejoiced over the oath, because they had sworn with all their heart, and they sought Him with all their will, and He was found by them, and the Lord gave them rest from round about.

Not a commandment, no way. A narrative written by an unknown Chronicler who put his own moral tags in. God's commandments are generally clear to most religious Jews and killing the unbelievers is simply not included. Here is a list of the 613 Commandments that are required of Jews: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Well you may suspect these laws were executed with regularity some 4000 years ago by Jews, but you don't have any real evidence of it... no supporting history as far as I know... Maybe they were and maybe they weren't.

While we don't know for sure what Jews did 4000 years ago, what we do know for sure is that there are Muslims today that follow similar rules, and call it Sharia. Saudi Arabia executes people for sexual offenses, Iran stones adulteresses.

I would answer that violence is a much much greater part of the Koran than the Bible. Over and over again Allah excoriates the unbeliever. Another difference with Islam is that Mohamed is seen as the ultimate to emulate, much like Christians believe in emulating Jesus. Mohamed's life is therefore studied as a model of pure behavior. But his life corresponded to his teachings. When a Muslim studies the life of Mohamed he sees a man who raided and plundered, who broke his word, who married girls as young as 7, and who killed those who disagreed with him.

You will not find such a list as these from either the Hebrew Bible or the Christian New Testament. You may find isolated individual comments and remarks that may be interpreted differently, but not a pattern such as these:

• Koran 9:29
  Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.
  
  Koran 8:12
  Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."
  
  Koran 9:5
  "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
  
  Koran 9:73
  Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate.
  
  Koran 4:144
  Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves ?
  
  Koran 47:4
  When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.
  
  Koran 5:33-34
  The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful.
  alternate limbs and expelling the Kafirs (people following other religions) out of the land.
  
  Koran 5:51
  Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.
  
  Koran 5:57
  Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made your religion a jest and a pasttime...
  
  Koran 5:64
  The Jews say: 'God's hand is chained.' May their own hands be chained! May they be cursed for what they say!...
  
  Koran 9:29
  Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.
  
  Koran 9:30
  The Jews call 'Uzayr-a son of God', and the Christinas call 'Christ the Son Of God'. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but intimate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are decluded away from the Truth.
  
  Koran 98:1-8
  The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.
  
  Koran 22:19-22:23
  Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Sclading water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: 'Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'
  
  Koran 18:28-30
  For the wrongdoers We have prepared a fire which will encompass them like the walls of a pavilion. When they cry out for help they shall be showered with water as hot as molten brass, which will scald their faces. Evil shall be their drink, dismal their resting-place.
  
  Koran 40:67-40:73
  Do you not see how those who dispute the revelation of God turn away from the right path ? Those who have denied the Book and the message We sent through Our apostles shall realize the truth hereafter: when, with chains and shackles round their necks, they shall be dragged through scalding water and then burnt in the fire of Hell.
  
  Koran 43:74
  ..The unbelievers shall endure forever the torment of Hell. The punishment will never be lightened, and they shall be speechless with despair. We do not wrong, themselves.
  
  Koran 55:41-52
  ..That is the Hell which the unbelievers deny. They shall wander between fire and water fiercely seething. Which of your Lord's blessing would you deny ?
  
  Koran 76:1-5
  For the unbelievers We have prepared chains and fetters and a blazing Fire...
  
  Koran 73:12
  We have in store for the unbelievers heavy fetters and a blazing fire, choking food and harrowing torment: on the day when the earth shall quiver with all its mountains, and the mountains crumble into heaps of shifting sand.
  
  Koran 77:20-77:50
  Woe on that day to the disbelievers! Begone to the Hell which you deny! Depart into the shadow that will rise high in three columns, giving neither shade nor shelter from the flames, and throwing up sparks as huge as towers, as bright as yellow camels...Eat and enjoy yourselves awhile. You are wicked men..."
  
  Koran 8:73
  The unbelievers give aid and comfort to each other. If you fail to do likewise, there will be disorder in the land and great corruption.
  
  Koran 21:96-21:101
  ..The unbelievers shall stare in amazement, crying: 'Woe to us! Of this we have been heedless. We have done wrong.' You and your idols shall be the fuel of Hell; therein you all go down.

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"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

coyote: ha, we are now at the action level. good. we have been discussing jesus/mohamed and their actions. i asked you to list one more statement other than the endlessly recurring matthew 10:34-39. it seems you have drawn up a bank. in trying to find direction one looks for "finger posts" to point the way. one post hardly directs one in a direction. i recognized that limit that is why i offered a plethora of post pointing this way to war/marauding/slaving/killing/rape concerning mohamed. you have offered none. zip/zero/zilch. one doesn't have to pick cherries with mohamed and grind them through an interpreter. mohamed is quite concrete. mohamed serves as the example whereas jesus has to be worked over.

i am an atheist so i have no axe to grind in this religious junk, but i cannot have manipulative machinations pass for fair argument.

now to this: let's be 'antithetics' for argument sake. i shall offer muslim extremism (disguised as fundamentalism) and make argument. you can chose christian extremism (disguised as fundamentalism) and you make argument. we shall be intellectual adversaries even though i think your voltage is low.

since we are in "latest world news" the only constriction is that events be contemporary. let's not be missing links, it's so primitive.

i shall start with the duely elected hamas and their covenant:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

Article Eight:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

to prove their point hamas has rocketed "More than 7,000 Kassam rockets and mortars have been fired at Jewish communities in the western Negev since the beginning of the Oslo War in 2000,"

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125204

next i shall visit the islamic lamarckian concept of jews/pigs/monkeys.

in this islamic evolutionary bombshell we need some clarity because as with all emergent sciences, islamic science is in the throes of discovery and words have a hard time with islam's evolutionary ideas!

perhaps a reread of "animal farm" would help.

I'll note that you're using a different version of Chronicles than I am. But in any event, what you have is Asa swearing an oath to God, including promising to kill all nonbelievers. "All of Judah" rejoiced at the oath", and the Lord rewarded them for their devotion.

Well, that's one way to rationalize ignoring unpleasant things in one's holy book.

Like I said, I fully agree that modern Jews and Christians generally ignore such passages. But if one wanted to make the case that it's okay to kill unbelievers, one certainly has plenty of good starting points on which to build the argument -- the intervening centuries of contrary analysis nothwithstanding.

Oh, please. Leviticus is a listing of laws. There's every reason to think they were enforced. Especially because, as I said, it's not like the laws would have been unusual for the time.

Agreed. It's an extremely conservative, medieval, tribal culture.

Fair enough. Yet the world over, you see plenty of Muslims who don't think it's okay to marry 7-year-olds, kill, steal, etc. Where are such practices even partly condoned? In areas dominated by conservative, medieval, tribal cultures.

I'll grant that the Quran is more violent, in quantity if not in quality. But that doesn't mean that the violent parts must rule or dominate, and be emulated literally, any more than similar passages in other religions cannot be tamed. It's easy enough to read the Quran as the story of a warlord who spread a religion, not a religion that requires war.

__________________
Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

Well, that's one way to read it but I think it is not only mistaken, but demonstrates your bias. It is obviousthat that portion was added by the Chronicler. The oath was not to kill for God but to entered[s] the covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their forefathers, with all their heart and with all their soul. Their reward was peace with their neighbors.

In fact the covenant was entered into because:

3. Now there were many days for Israel without a true God and without an instructing priest, and without the Torah.
4. And they returned to the Lord, the God of Israel, when they were in distress, and they sought Him, and He was found by them.
5. And in those times, there was no peace for anyone going or coming for there were great turmoils upon all the inhabitants of the lands.
6. And nation was crushed by nation and city by city, because God discomfited them with all troubles.
7. But you be strong and let your hands not slacken, for there is reward for your work."

It is not my holy book, fyi. I am merely a student of the religions. My version is the Jewish Bible, (not a Christian translation) here: http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...Chapter-15.htm

Actually they were unusual at the time. Do you know of any other codified law that demonstrates your point? As far as I know the ethics and morality laws as well as the hygiene laws were not in effect with any other culture. The laws that were enforced were generally enforced on all Jews, not merely the by and for the elite.

Only if you read it with a much more forgiving eye than you are reading the Bible! To quote you :" Well, that's one way to rationalize ignoring unpleasant things in one's holy book."

The problem is that unless you are willing to meet violence with even more violence you will be dominated by those (however small the group) who in fact use the violence to rule and dominate others. If a violent Muslim meets a turn-the-other-cheek Christian, the Muslim wins and eventually dominates. And even if 99% of Muslims were peaceloving, 1% can cause incredible havoc in the world.

My prediction:
By the time Islam is 'tamed,' your descendants will be praying 5 times a day and reading the Koran in Arabic.

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"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

Prescribing death or a variety of crimes (adultery, homosexuality, unbelief) was not all that unusual. I'll give you the dietary laws.

I only say stuff like that to demonstrate that people tend to give Christianity a pass that they don't give Islam.

To be clear, I don't hold Muslims or Christians or Jews responsible for the violent stuff in their holy books unless they specifically reference it. I recognize that every religion, as it ages, rationalizes and ignores outdated portions of its scriptures.

Agreed. So if someone gets violent, you deal with them.

And if a peaceful Muslim meets a violent Christian, the Christian wins. I don't really see what your point is.

Sure. Just like 1% of Christians or Hindus or whatever can cause incredible havoc.

I fully support dealing as harshly and effectively as necessary with such people. *All* I get irritated about is people trying to say that the entire religion is the problem.

I totally disagree. Because the same cultures that preserve atavistic Islam are incapable of modern governance, pretty much unable to develop indigenous technology, and aren't numerous enough to conquer the world by force. But for oil, their economies pretty much suck -- and the oil will be running out before too long.

They will be a thorn in the world's side for a while -- but they will remain a thorn, nothing more.

And if they don't, then I'll dust off my Army commission and get reacquainted with the inside of a tank. Just because I don't fear Islam doesn't mean I'll just roll over and bare my throat if a real threat arises.

__________________
Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

The problem is that the words of Jesus have to be taken in context with the entire Bible - OT and NT. Christians seem to approach this in several ways:

- it's not meant literally, much of it is metaphor or historical and no longer applies today - it is all superceded by Jesus' summation of two commandments.
- much of it is still valid - homos are still abominations (while eating shellfish isn't); adultry deserves criminalization, the Ten Commandments apply, and the arguments that led to the "doctrine for a just war"

Examples of violence can be found here:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

There are plenty of expressions supposedly attributed to Jesus that support the latter view if one chooses to do that. The big problem with the Bible is it's many contradictions which become apparent when one takes it literally.

That brings us to Islam. The Quran has many violent passages - reflecting both the culture of the time and the man who was it's prophet. However - side by side with the Bible - you will find that they are almost equal in violence and bloodshed. (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cr...ble_quran.html) The cultures that led to the Abrahamic faiths were pretty violent. The idea of a diety as a benign father figure is a relatively modern construct. Yet - despite that - the Quran and the Bible only 5.34 and 2.71 percent (respectively) of their total versus express violence. That's really not much.

That brings us to the next problem faced by people who argue irreconciable violence in a religion. Context. Context is important, of course, and many of these seeming cruelties disappear when read as such. However - would that stop an extremist (of any faith) from interpreting their holy book in such a manner as to concoct a religious justification for unspeakable horrors? Like Pope Urban II did, for example, when he preached the First Crusade in 1095? Or like many American preachers did when they used Leviticus to defend slavery? Or like modern Islamic extremists do to defend their interpretation of "jihad"?

So think for a moment...in the Quran 5.34% of the versus are violent. That's a minute amount in comparison to the whole. Likewise in the Bible 2.71%. This means that you must be working quite hard to cherry pick all those violent versus while simultaneiously ignoring the far vaster amount of non violent ones. I notice there are many anti-Islamic sites that apparently do that. Is there a double standard at play perhaps based on cultural attitudes?

The last thing - and the reason I bring up Christianity at all is that Christianity has a similar bloody, violent, war torn past. It doesn't matter what it's prophet said because in whatever he said was found the relgious justification for bloodshed, slavery, and discrimmination. What's important is that a large portion of Christians overcame it and turned towards a different, less literal interpretation of their holy book. This went hand in hand with a major religious reformation, with cultural secularization, democracy and overall prosperity. Hard times breed extremists and fundamentalists. Many of the Islamic countries are developing countries with repressive regimes and high rates of corruption. They are still based on a very feudal and tribal way of life and way of thinking (goat herder logic to use a phrase coined by another poster elsewhere). Some of those countries have jumped from this way of life to an affluent westernized way of life in less then 3 generations. That means there are people alive who remember what it was like before. That is hardly enough to affect a major cultural change or shift in the common person's attitude.

This brings us to the tenant of "free speech". We seem to think free speech should be valued highly everywhere and because it isn't in these Islamic countries to the same degree it is in ours - that the problem is the religion. Well, the bible has plenty of injunctions against blasphemy. There used to be laws in this country concerning it. We've moved beyond it in the secularization of our system of law. That does not mean that given time, these Islamic countries won't achieve the same.

That leads to my final point: all of your arguments seem to point towards a view that Muslims intepretations of Islam can not and will not change - despite the fact that Christians, with a similar legacy - did.


I am an agnostic - I adhere to no doctrine. I do not think I am the one with manipulative machinations here. I am not the one trying to make 5% of the Quran into 100%.

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I'm a leftwing fascist, disease spreading, devil worshipper!

I don't mean to be picky, but please give me the name of the religion at that time that prescribed death for a variety of crimes. Remember we are talking about roughly 1000 BC.
The operative word is "can." That 1% of Muslims actually are.
While there may well be good parts in the religion, the religion itself is so permeated with violence that it may well be the religion that is the problem. Of course I am not advocating wiping out all the adherents, and there is not a thing I can do about the religion either.
Doesn't take numbers. eg Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. Just take a lot of good men to do nothing, right?

True...but they have 95+ % of all the world's known oil reserves. I hope you are right in your prediction.

Well, there you go. I am not advocating fear, lol. Just a healthy skepticism, watchfulness, and a readiness to pounce as necessary. I hope you are right and that Islam matures into peacefulness, but until then I advocate, as my Dad used to say, keeping your eyes peeled.

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"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

I'm not talking about a religion alone; I'm talking about laws. The Jewish laws were as much tribal as religious. It's pretty impossible to separate the two.

The most famous ancient code of law is Hammurabi's, the Babylonian king.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_law#Punishment

It was written around 1760 B.C. It was one of several ancient codes of law that are all pretty similar -- which is unsurprising, because they all emerged from the same general area.

Hammurabi's code provided death for, among other things, murder, theft, burglary, some kinds of incest, adultry, rape, bigamy, even *divorce* (if it was the woman trying to dump her husband).

The earliest code, the Code of Ur-Nammu, was written around 2050 B.C. It provided death for, among other things, murder, theft and adultery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

There was also the Codex of Eshnunna (pdf), written around 1,900 B.C. It prescribes death for deflowering a bride-to-be, "distraining" that causes death, shoddy construction that causes death and trespassing at night.

And those are only the codes that we know of. They were so detailed and so well-established that it's clear that their roots went back much farther.

Death was handed out pretty freely back then.

So deal with the 1%. Why try to tar the other 99% with the actions of the few? Whatever religion you profess (if you do), do the extremists represent you?

If you admit that 99% of the adherents aren't violent terrorists, it's hard to see how you can plausibly claim the religion is the problem. A 99% success rate is pretty good.

Understood.

But their numbers are so few that it would take apathy on an epic scale for them to take over. Hitler, Stalin, etc. were at least operating within the cultural structure of their time and place. You're talking about trying to overthrow a millennia old culture and replace it with something alien, imposed from without. It's just not going to happen.

And are constrained by the market. They can't wield oil as a weapon without damaging themselves just as much. For them to sell, there need to be buyers; and they are dependent on the oil revenue to keep their economies functioning.

Sure, be watchful. After all, the extremists *are* murderous nutballs.

But there's no truly logical reason to tar the entire religion, and it's strategically dumb besides: why pick a fight with 1 billion Muslims when you can deal with a few thousand extremists instead?

__________________
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