Maybe. But we are still a democracy actually based on basic Christian law... no murder, no stealing, etc. Very little of the so-called far-right Christian agenda is actually law. We still have abortion-on-demand, gay rights, essentially legalized prostitution etc. I agree with Shadowman that "People of faith can also use reason, no one is looking to go back to the dark ages, but neither do I want to run headlong into anarchy," only my tendency would be to use the word "decadence" over "anarchy."

Huckabee is an extremely intelligent man. While one might not agree with everything he has to say, I would hope people would listen to him rather than tune him out because he is religious. (then of course we have Obama and his religious preacher: "God Dam* America")

We have only to look at Europe's problems with their Muslim minorities to see what happens if one becomes overly secularized. An overtly political religion such as Islam will move into the vacuum and THEN you will see the new dark ages, imho.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

People of faith have always opposed scientific and medical advances. Condoms to prevent aids, vaccines to prevent disease, the roundness of this planet, prehistoric animals, etc... Even today, many christians oppose the HPV vaccination on the basis that it promotes sexual promiscuity; even though such a vaccine could prevent 6.2 million people from getting HPV. Christians are also trying to pervert our education system with their crazy notion that the earth is only 6,000 years old. Presidential candidates like Huckaby that publicly state that they don't believe evolution has happened. All religious people have been dragged, kicking and screaming, into a world in which we can actually explain things using mathematic equations and still to this day they are fighting for the old way.

People do not need an old rewritten book (the bible) to decide what is moral. Nevermind the fact that there are plenty of immoral views expressed by that deity and the followers of that book have never held the high ground when it comes to morality. Just to name a few recent examples of the slaughtering christians have committed; Ireland, Croatia, Kosovo, and many many more. Only education of science and the push for secularist governing has made christians change their divisive ways and adapt to a more tolerant way of practicing their faith.

The reason I asked the question of how many christians would support an atheist president in the US, is because most would not. Just like many muslims do not support non-muslim leaders. There are plenty of right wingers who have been spreading lies about Baraq Obama, claiming that he is a muslim. It has been proven that he is not. They spread these lies because they know that many, if not most, christians would not support a muslim president.

__________________
Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

I don't think it is only people of faith or Christians who oppose medical and scientific advances. It is in general the masses who fear what they don't know or understand. You said: "All religious people have been dragged, kicking and screaming," into the modern age. That is certainly an overgeneralisation.

I don't know how many people would support an aetheist but I bet quite a few. At one time it was thought that Americans would not elect a Roman Catholic president but they elected John F Kennedy. It was thought we would not elect a divorced man, but then they elected Ronald Reagan. Most of us don't really care what a person's religion is - or isn't- as long as he is a man (or she is a person) of character and integrity and we agree with their general view of the world.

I do agree that most Christians would not vote for a Muslim for President, and I am one of those. I also agree that Obama does not consider himself a Muslim, although Muslims may consider him one due to the fact that he had a Muslim father and went for Muslim education as a youngster. This latest thing about his pastor is rather amazing however...

The reason I would not vote for a Muslim president is because I believe the Muslim religion puts religion over secularity. Politics is an integral part of Islam as is the eventual moving of everyone under Sharia law. This is happening little-by-little all over the world. I would not vote for a Muslim president, nor would I vote for anyone who will show weakness in the face of Islam, for that gives Islam(ists) an opportunity for exploitation and makes them stronger.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

How can I overgeneralize those that base their faith on generalizations? Anybody who does not think like they do, is going to hell according to them. People being unable to understand things is how religion was started. As we learn more, religion must adjust. This has been the case throughout the history of religion, no matter which one we discuss.

Ever notice that as the elections get closer, religion becomes such a popular topic among our politicians? No atheist could be elected today, not yet.

Muslims would be more likely to think that Obama is muslim simply because of his name. He could just as easily be considered catholic since he attended a catholic school also when he was young. But you don't see that bit of info in those emails that christians are sending out.
The same could be said about christianity. In fact this was the case several hundred years ago. Religion is very much a governing body that passes judgment and enforces laws. The only reason religion plays less of a role in governing in western/christian countries is because christians now have better education through the benefit of wealth and prosperity. Christianity has liberalized. That's the only difference between it and Islam.

__________________
Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

I think you are talking about a real minority of Christians who feel like that today. Religion (at least Christianity and Judaism) has already adjusted. Even the Catholic Church with its rigorous authoritarianism...while the Church itself may still be authoritative, its members forgive themselves a lot of sins. Or take Judaism for example, they Bible says that parents must consider their children dead if they marry outside the religion, and that they must follow the practice of tearing their clothes in mourning. This is only done by the tiniest minority of fanatics if at all. The intermarriage rate among Jews and Christians or Jews and atheists is phenomenal! Again, the faiths have adjusted.
I think this is true these days in particular because of the huge influence of religion in the rest of the world today. Take a look at the interesting chart here: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

I have not seen the emails about Islam and Obama. Which Christians are sending them out? I agree that people should considered whatever they consider themselves. Apparently Obama does consider himself Christian as he goes to a Christian Church. I guess he considers himself Black too even though he is half-white.

Now that's a giant over-generalisation if I ever heard one. First of all, regarding wealth and prosperity and liberality and secularism. You will have to write a thesis on that to convince me. Actually I think the American experiment was the first to demand freedom of religion for itself and to (ostensibly) insist that there be no "State" religion, as there is in most "Islamic" countries. From that humble beginning we have continued to be enlightened.

I for one am not against aethists (and by the way I did not mean to leave the impression that I was a Christian, as I am not. I do have tremendous respect for the believers however) or agnostics. I just hope that they do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The Judaic-Christian tradition of laws is what has helped our country become educated, wealthy and prosperous.

Your last statement that wealth and prosperity and education are the only difference between Islam and Christianity is a breathtakingly amazing overgeneralisation. Perhaps you got carried away?

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

And why do you think they have adjusted and strayed from the strict interpretation of the text in the bible and the torah? Because of education. Because of advances that have proven many of those ideals and statements to be untrue and unnatural.

My in-laws sent them to me. I've also heard discussion about the mass emails being forwarded on national radio programs so I assume it's widespread. They include the lapel pin and hand-over-heart during the pledge allegations along with the muslim accusation. Also people on this very forum have posted the same material. You can find the accusations on many other websites. It was widespread enough for snopes to debunk it. http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Wealth and Prosperity; what else would allow individuals, thinkers, and scientists to have the spare time to experiment and learn? Through a prosperous society where people were not required to grow or create every object they needed to live, they had more time and resources to achieve greater goals. Just look at the current standard-of-living statistics, and you'll find that secularist nations founded by christians tend to have more wealth. Not to mention better education. People from around the globe flock to the US for the higher learning found in our universities. Wealth created those universities and wealth keeps improving them. They have produced explanations, solutions, and technology that religion could never produce.

Actually, my last statement was this:
Christianity has liberalized. That's the only difference between it and Islam.


Followers of christianity have liberalized more so than followers of Islam. That is somewhat a generalization because there are exceptions of christians that still follow the bible strictly and muslims that don't follow all of the laws in the koran.

But christianity as a whole has liberalized. There are many examples. Women are treated more fairly in our society now, even though in ancient times christians did not treat them as equal. Not at all. The way christians now tolerate other religions opposed to how they have in the past. Legalization of abortion is popular in this nation of mostly christians. These are only a few examples. There are many more examples of how christianity has liberalized.

__________________
Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

There are a lot of reasons. We no longer worship a fertility goddess because we understand how things grow. The ideals of the Bible are not untrue or unnatural. It is clear enough for me from the 10 Commandments and from Jesus' interpretation of them as found on the Sermon on the Mount, that there is nothing untrue or unnatural with those ideals. As Rabbi Hillel the great Jewish commentator (1st CE) said when asked what was the most important commandment: "Do not do to others what would you would find abhorrent for others to do to you. The rest is commentary."

Sorry that sounds reasonable but is just not true. Jews have a long long history & tradition of education and even the poorest of the poor Jews would slave to be able to send a bright Jewish boy off to learn and possibly become a rabbi or a doctor. It has more to do with what one values most. Of course it is easier to have the time and money, but time and money alone does not do it.
You are putting the chicken before the horse. It is the will to education that educates everyone. It was the founding fathers believing in a public education for all. Wealth came later. Wealth creates universities but not without the will to create universities.

Look at the wealthy Islamic nations such as Saudi Arabia. They have the benefit of much oil wealth. Yet they are founding Wahabbi (strict Islamist interpretative) institutions & mosques throughout the world, not universities that create "explanations, solutions, and technology."
The only difference? There is a vast difference between the Quran and the Hadiths and the New Testament.

I don't have a problem with generalizations unless they are false. All a generalization is is a statement regarding a majority of any population.
I don't disagree. So has Judaism. But just because one religion has liberalized doesn't mean another one will. It is like saying that just because your grandpa turned into a liberal your grandma will too, and so will the neighbors.

Christianity and Judaism has liberalized. There are no guarantees that Islam will. In fact, there are those who argue that over the years Islam has become more militant and aggressive, more radical and strict construction, rather than less so. The history of Iran is a good example.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

I think as God is not concerned we are all apples and oranges, and grapes and cherries and hoofed and finned. I haven't seen any evolutionary evidence that supposes that there isn't a higher power.

There are dinasour artifacts, and there are artifacts beyond BC that can proof or dis-proof both religious beliefs. What it boils down to is that you either believe there is a higher power or you believe life is premedetermend by chance. Equivically it is the same belief.
Which is why it is so distressing when non-Christians attack believers because they think we don't care for the world.

Are more taxes supposed to make a difference because I've never seen Sierra club accomplish anything other than time management.

__________________
And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

Thanks for the link. Would you believe I got this email this morning?! I immediately went to check out your link and see that there is much wrong with that email. In fact I will send the link to the person who sent me the email. I would not vote for Obama for other reasons, but I don't believe in 'bearing false witness' against anyone. I hate lying propaganda ....

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

I believe in equality and I am completely against the war in Iraq. If I had to vote in the american election I would vote for Obama. I do have some problems with him though, but then I have problems with every candidate, I do not like his pro-abortion stance. I do like how he is anti-war though. Also Hilary is pro-abortion, but she also thinks the war is justified. Though McCain is against abortion he is pro-war and seems very gung-ho. I think he is too much of a fanatical and his foreign policies, like Bushes will only cause more strife and conflict.