Can Muslim citizens be loyal to a non-Muslim government?


bernard lewis

one only need to read the O.I.C. to understand the depth to bernard lewis' statement that islam is a religion of nations where islam is transcendent to the state which resides within the "ummah über alles".

""Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness (vain) in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing." Surah 2:225

There is a difference between individuals acting out of misplaced hatred and an entire people.

I would never vote for a murderer, but I wouldn't discount a politician just because of his religion.

Of the few Muslim people I know, they seem to be a perfectly fine people, with too many extremists. Again, I honestly don't know much, the media and my friends paint opposing pictures of the people.

The difference is that Islam is a more than "just his religion." Islam is a way of life. Nor do you don't have to have be a murderer to have bloody hands. Murderers have ruled a number of countries and some have been freely elected (Hitler).

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"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

We unlike any other animals have more developed brains that allow us to realize such values as those that can best sustain ourselves. Other animals without our evolved brain have caused their own extinction because of such ignorance. Laws are there because of intelligence.

That is just false. To question whether a creator is provable, or whether miracles can be scientifically explained, or to question any other outlandish occurence in the bible, is heresy. I was a catholic. I know how that church operates. Until very recently they upheld the opinion that the planet earth was flat. Galileo was imprisoned because of it. Questioning Catholicism = sin and punishment.



Such things contradicted their religious text that they base their faith on. People have been oppressed by such opinions at the hands of the religious leaders. It took persons that questioned reality and studied known facts to produce these findings. No bible verses were used to prove it. The religious people only accepted it once it was proven through scientific observation. Some people of faith still do not accept it. Mike Huckaby, a presidential candidate claims that he does not believe to be true. His faith is that of those that refuse to accept that the bible does not truthfully explain reality. I was taught science courses by an outspoken baptist who also claimed that evolution was not real. Even today with evolution being a proven occurence, many religious followers still deny it to be true because the same book they base their unproven existence of the creator also denies real proven science.

Genetics is not a controversial subject pertaining to the bible and present day science. The bible has no basic contradictions within it pertaining to genetics. This is because some of the occurrences of genetic traits are obvious to the human eye. Even basic observations made by prehistoric people legitimized genetics. It was obvious science.

Rome did not have the moral standards that most religions today have. It was one of the earliest religions used to explain the incomprehensible so naturally more thinking was involved. There was no bible or set text to legislate from.

Pointing out bloodshed by secularists only points out something about human nature. We humans have justified terrible things wether we use hatred, contempt, greediness, or blind faith. When we have used faith as the basis, we believe it was justified regardless of atrocities and failures.


It is silly to require science to jump to such a conclusion. You are basically saying that since such a diety hasn't been disproven, it must exist. It is illogical to prove a negative. Just because we don't have all the answers yet, does not mean some unexplainable occurence has happened in the past.

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Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

That is not a secular society. Secularism is required first. Religious governments have pillaged the world many times over and reaped it's riches. Those did not sustain themselves.

A combination of wealth and values are needed. Religion was created to explain the unexplainable. Now that we have reached a point where we can scientifically explain many things (not all), we can recognize the importance of values without religion. Some of us do no need the threat of eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation to act morally. We realize that our existance and the future existance of others requires such values to sustain itself. The use of religion has been replaced with knowledge and genuine compassion rather than using threats to enforce such things.

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Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

Sickntiredofliblie: palpably false. for the statement to be proven false one only need to demonstrate one instance where a person of faith (any faith) supported a single scientific and/or medical advance.

Okay, so why is it such a stretch to ignore some primal drives to ignoring others? Your point was that religious laws were unnatural, but why aren't secular laws unnatural? The modern human as a species would naturally live in anarchy.

Well you have to understand that the church is an imperfect institution. Some of their actions in the past and some today aren't right. However, blaming today's church for persecuting Galileo is like blaming today's Germany for the Holocaust.

And questioning Catholicism certainly isn't a sin. By no stretch of the imagination does the church hold that its beliefs can be proved scientifically, it merely offers its explanation and beliefs. Whether or not you wish to accept those beliefs are up to you, and in the end, some would argue we are judged by our actions not by the specifics of our beliefs.

Its true that some individual catholics believe some weird things (like evolution not being the case). However, I could find some secular people who believe even crazier things.

Official church doctrine accepts that Evolution can coexist with our beliefs. And I challenge you to find any religious text that conflicts with evolution.

The details of genetic science certainly weren't obvious, by any stretch. Furthermore, what science will be controversial when interpreting scripture correctly? Unless you think that the authors of the bible knew exactly how God created the world, or made us a species, anything is open for discovery.

Well in the earlier days of Rome, yes thats true, later on Catholicism was the primary religion.

That was my point. The bloodshed you speak of isn't exclusive of the faithful. It happens across all walks of humanity, and if faith wasn't there to use as an excuse dozens of secular reasons would be used instead.

I never said that God could be proven to exist. (Actually, I didn't say what you are retorting about at all, I quoted a man much wiser than myself) If you want proof, there isn't any. However, faith can coexist with science. I can believe that evolution was the process by which we became the species that we are, it would be foolish not to. I can aslo believe that this process happened the way it did because a greater being willed it to happen.

We are surrounded by a huge universe, and every day we find out its bigger and more fantastic than we had thought the day before. When it comes to how we all got here, science can only stab in the dark. We've been given this great universe, and for proof of a greater being you want him to come down and defy his laws?

Not so sure about that. It is no believed by most scientists that the extinction of the dinosaurs was caused by meteoric impact and its aftermath. Buffalo were hunted to extinction by man. Most animals are uniquely evolved to fill a particular niche and they do it well enough to survive. It is the circumstances that change, thus the extinction is not the fault of 'ignorance'.

Laws also evolved slowly, as did intelligence. Some early law was strange and perverse by today's standards.

I tend to be sympathetic to your view regarding the Catholics. I understand the Pope even gave Hawkings a warning regarding delving too deeply into cosmological beginnings.
Furthermore, during the dark ages the church edited religious material and was active in the persecution of Jews as well as Muslims. There were Papal Bulls that were very cruel toward the Jews. The Church is very secretive to this day, and will not open up the Vatican archives for scholars. (probably with plenty of reason!)

It is still called a THEORY of evolution, doncha know? As far as I am aware, although the story of Adam and Eve came from the Old Testament, the Jews do not believe in its 'literal' interpretation. Nor do most Christians. Every peoples have beginnings myths. It was an early attempt to understand our beginnings.

Just as we once believed that thunder and lightening was a warning sign from Zeus, there are many such examples. At one time people believed that tomatoes were poisonous. Did you ever wonder what you might believe if you had been born 1000 or 5000 years ago? Would you believe that the stars were the peepholes into the night-blanket that covered the sky so that you could not see into gloriously bright Heaven above? Today many of these Bible stories are wonderful springboards to understanding things of a different nature from science. We are more than simply the interaction of our cells and molecules.

And we are more than a mere collection of our genes and chromosomes. The human being is more than the sum of its parts. The very spirit that leads us to discovery and science and ethics is nebulous and not to be found in the science or the atom....

Even secularists have faith don't forget. They have faith in their secularity. Millions were killed to appease the god of Secularity as well. "Religion is the opiate of the people" -- remember that? Think Stalin and Mao. And by the same token it was the ethical nature of religious observers that has saved the lives of many people as well, whether the 'righteous gentiles' during WWII or the mostly Christian movement to free slaves in the U.S. or the humanitarian spirit in many churches that leads to helping others in famines or other terrible humanitarian disasters.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

islam is a State in itself so by definition any loyalty to another state would be blasphemy.

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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

This is true Even in an Islamic State.

As I said earlier in the string - the real Treason for most Muslims is Apostasy and why you can even be killed for it in a few of them.

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