Can Muslim citizens be loyal to a non-Muslim government?

concheet · #1 (**permalink**) 02-24-2008, 06:49 PM

This is a question verbatim from a site called thereligionofpeace.com . The question is relevant to world peace, I believe. Do read further at the link provided, as it has support from the Koran, as well as from the Hadiths, and give your own opinion if you will.

Question:

Can Muslim citizens be loyal to a non-Muslim government?

Summary Answer:

Many are loyal, of course, but it is in spite of Islamic teaching. Unlike other faiths, Islam is not just a religion but a political system as well. The state is intended to be inseparable from religious rule. Islamic law, or Sharia, is complete and not designed to coexist with or be subordinate to other legal systems.

Muslims are not meant to be ruled by non-Muslims. The Qur'an is very clear that they are to fight unbelievers until Islamic rule is established over all the earth. This doesn't mean that everyone must be forced to become Muslim, but rather that everyone must submit to Muslim rule.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...government.htm

Is this accurate or hype?

SPS44 · #2 (**permalink**) 02-26-2008, 09:54 PM

Christianity believes that Jesus Christ will return to the earth as King and rule for 1,000 years. All other religions will not be tolerated. Lucifer will make one last attempt to usurp Christ after the 1,000 year reign and then he will be cast away for good. There will then be a new heaven and a new earth. All those who do not accept Christ will be destroyed with Lucifer.

That's the hard simple facts of Christianity. Unforgiven sinners (those who reject Christ) will eventually be destroyed. All other sinners will live in peace (those who have been forgiven because they willingly accepted God's gift - Jesus Christ dying in their place.)

As for now, the example of how to live until Christ's return is laid out in the Christian Bible. It's not all black and white. They are allowed freewill. Their salvation will not be judged, but their faith will be judged and their future responsibilities will be on the line.

No matter how some Christians may sugar coat it, this is Christianity in a nutshell. To be a Christian, one must be saved. Their works are not towards the salvation they already have, but towards their membership in the times to come.

So, yes, just as a Christian can be a loyal member a democratic, rather than the truly Christian theocratic rule, a muslim can be a loyal member of a non-muslim government.

bugalugs · #3 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 03:03 AM

Have a read of the Old Testament and tell us if Christians or Jews can be loyal to a non Judeo/Christian government.

concheet · #4 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPS44

Christianity believes that Jesus Christ will return to the earth as King and rule for 1,000 years. All other religions will not be tolerated. Lucifer will make one last attempt to usurp Christ after the 1,000 year reign and then he will be cast away for good. There will then be a new heaven and a new earth. All those who do not accept Christ will be destroyed with Lucifer.

That's the hard simple facts of Christianity. Unforgiven sinners (those who reject Christ) will eventually be destroyed. All other sinners will live in peace (those who have been forgiven because they willingly accepted God's gift - Jesus Christ dying in their place.)

As for now, the example of how to live until Christ's return is laid out in the Christian Bible. It's not all black and white. They are allowed freewill. Their salvation will not be judged, but their faith will be judged and their future responsibilities will be on the line.

No matter how some Christians may sugar coat it, this is Christianity in a nutshell. To be a Christian, one must be saved. Their works are not towards the salvation they already have, but towards their membership in the times to come.

So, yes, just as a Christian can be a loyal member a democratic, rather than the truly Christian theocratic rule, a muslim can be a loyal member of a non-muslim government.

This is the Christian myth of the end days. The Muslims have their myth as well. Check out 12th Imam and Mahdi for more elucidation. The myth has it that only Christians will be saved. In end days, it is God who decides who will 'live' and who will 'die.' What Christians imagine for their end-days is not really a proper comparison with Muslims' beliefs and actions today. Apples and oranges.

Muslims actively work to ensure their law is the only law. What is happening in Darfur? Kenya? Muslims are using violence and aggression to push for Sharia Law. In other places such as Kosovo, Philippines, China, Chechnya, they are looking for a piece of the land for their own (Muslim) state. Is this only a coincidence, or is it true that: "Unlike other faiths, Islam is not just a religion but a political system as well. The state is intended to be inseparable from religious rule. Islamic law, or Sharia, is complete and not designed to coexist with or be subordinate to other legal systems." ?

concheet · #5 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugalugs

Have a read of the Old Testament and tell us if Christians or Jews can be loyal to a non Judeo/Christian government.

I've read it. Both. And I would say yes, very clearly.

First, I am talking reality, not theoretical. Facts on the ground. Christians immigrated to the US several hundred years ago and established this country based on the idea that Amendment Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

We in America really value that freedom, Christians and Jews alike. And that First Amendment to the Constitution continues:

...or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

There is nothing incompatible in the Bible with that. In fact, Jesus was said to have put it this way: “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:21).

Sickntiredofliblies · #6 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 09:21 PM

As far as I can tell, the old testament is somewhat irrellevant to Christians unless they can convienently use it on certain issues.

bugalugs · #7 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by concheet

We in America really value that freedom, Christians and Jews alike. And that First Amendment to the Constitution continues:

...or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

There is nothing incompatible in the Bible with that.

Isn't there?

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again Exodus 21:7-11

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

What happens if you want to keep slaves like the Bible says you can, but you live in a Muslim country that has outlawed slavery? What are you going to do?

Though seriously - don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Christian or Jewish citzens cannot be loyal to a non-Christian/Judeao government. Of course they can. I'm just curious as to why you are so bigoted towards Muslims?

concheet · #8 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugalugs

What happens if you want to keep slaves like the Bible says you can, but you live in a Muslim country that has outlawed slavery? What are you going to do?

Though seriously - don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Christian or Jewish citzens cannot be loyal to a non-Christian/Judeao government. Of course they can. I'm just curious as to why you are so bigoted towards Muslims?

Those laws are archaic. I am not sure how long ago Jews outlawed slavery, but Christians outlawed it several centuries ago.

This from wiki (my bolds, notice it is sourced and footnoted):

Quote:

Twentieth Century suppression and outlawry

Unlike Western societies which in their opposition to slavery spawned anti-slavery movements whose numbers and enthusiasm often grew out of church groups, no such grass-roots organizations ever developed in Muslim societies. In Muslim politics the state unquestioningly accepted the teachings of Islam and applied them as law. Islam, by sanctioning slavery - however mild a form it generally took - also extended legitimacy to the nefarious traffic in slaves.[100]

Writing about 1862 the English traveller W.G. Palgrave says that in Arabia he constantly met with negro slaves in large numbers. The effects of concubinage were apparent in the number of persons of mixed race and the emancipation of slaves he found to be common.[101] Doughty, writing about 25 years later, made similar reports.[102]

Slavery was common in the East Indies until the end of the 19th Century. In Singapore in 1891 there was a regular trade in Chinese slaves by Muslim slaveowners, with girls and women used for concubinage.[103]

At Istanbul, the sale of black and Circassian women was conducted openly until the granting of the Constitution in 1908.[104]

It was in the early 20th century (post World War I) that slavery gradually became outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[4]

In 1925 slaves were still being bought and sold at Mecca in the ordinary way of trade.[105] The slave market there consisted of the offspring of local slaves as well as those imported from the Yemen, Africa, and Asia Minor.

By the Treaty of Jedda, May 1927 (art.7), concluded between the British Government and Ibn Sa'ud (King of Nejd and the Hijaz) it was finally agreed to suppress the slave trade in Saudi Arabia. Then by a decree issued in 1936 the importation of slaves into Saudi Arabia was prohibited unless it could be proved that they were slaves at that date.[106]

In 1953, sheikhs from Qatar attending the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II included slaves in their retinues, and they did so again on another visit five years later.[107]

It was not until 1962 that all slavery practice or trafficking in Saudi Arabia was prohibited.

By 1969 it could be observed that most Muslim states had abolished slavery although it existed in the deserts of Iraq bordering Arabia and it still flourished in Saudi Arabia, the Yemen and Oman.[108] Slavery was not formally abolished in Yemen and Oman until the following year.[109] The last nation to formally enact the abolition of slavery practice and slave trafficking was the Islamic Republic of Mauritania in 1981.[110]

Gordon describes the lack of homegrown Islamic abolition movements as owing much to the fact that it was deeply anchored in Islamic law. By legitimizing slavery and - by extension - traffic in slaves, Islam elevated those practices to an unassailable moral plain. As a result, in no part of the Muslim world was an ideological challenge ever mounted against slavery. The political and social system in Muslim society would have taken a dim view of such a challenge.[111]

Why am I so 'bigoted' toward the Muslims?
I am not bigoted against Muslims. Muslims are just people that follow a religion just like Christians, Hindus and Jews. I believe in co-existence. If the Muslims can do it, fine. I have no problem with that. I only have a problem with people who cannot or will not coexist (peacefully) with me.

concheet · #9 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sickntiredofliblies

As far as I can tell, the old testament is somewhat irrellevant to Christians unless they can convienently use it on certain issues.

You have a point there.

bugalugs · #10 (**permalink**) 03-01-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by concheet

Those laws are archaic.

So, those laws are archaic when it comes to slavery - yet there are plenty of Christians who will quote laws from the same source as their proof that homosexuality is wrong.

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