Thank you for clearing this up for me I have been looking but I guess I got the pages mixed up or the volume I don't have them so I looked online and I can't do two things at once with dialup. I might have also looked in the wrong places but I thank you for the clear up.

So I am sorry catzmeow for doubting your statements but like I said that still doesn't disqualify his validity as a martyr. If my brother was shot from next to me and I had access to a gun I would shoot too.

Now that I think about it though I think I heard a talk on this very subject recently so I guess I must go to research that.

Excellent links though.

Here is the thing, Link. I don't think that Joseph Smith ever thought his fraud would go so far. That's why, until the very last minute, he was fighting back and fleeing. I think he honestly believed that the government would protect him, and that he would make the gesture, but not actually DIE. It's interesting watching people who are prepared to die, and those who aren't. I've known cops who willingly went into the line of fire, and they never hesitated, and never looked back. Until the last second, Joseph Smith was RUNNING, not choosing to die.

Compare that with the biblical testimony of how Jesus Christ went to the cross. He went mutely, willingly, and without resistance.

Very different. VERY, VERY DIFFERENT.

There is a difference between willingly laying one's life down for one's beliefs or core principles, and resisting dying until the last minute.

Joseph Smith was killed, yes, but he was no martyr. I think he'd managed to talk his way out of every single issue up until that last moment. And, in the last moment of his life, he realized he really would DIE, and that changed everything for him. He was a charismatic man, clearly, or he'd never have persuaded so many to follow him. But was he a person who lived his life in the mold of Christ? NO. Absolutely not.

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I love the smell of napalm in the morning...It smells like victory.

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Bugalugs: "people join the military because they are stupid and gullible."

Hello Catz, hope you and your family are well. I am still trucking along. Snowed in today. Snow plows have not come through my neighborhood, yet, and the ice that came with the snow makes it too slippery to try and get out. When the elements open up like this why can't it be a workday?

Haven't heard from any of the "gang" in a long time. Nice to know you are still here, alive and going strong. Ha Keep it up.

(Haven't figured out all the functions on this new forum setup, yet.)

Later....

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Hi, I like communications. I like intelligent and amusing people. We might disagree, but that's okay. Just don't be boring.

I would be running from a Mob that came shooting at me and my family too if I thought that there was some way to escape regroup and seek redress from the government I don't know about Joseph smith but I do know that I would have done the exact thing were I in his shoes.

They weren't shooting at christ were they? Also christ was the son of god he knew that it was necessary for him to die for the salvation of the world. Joseph may have fought back but so would I and so would you given the chance and the knowledge that a mob was forming to kill you no matter your position. It still doesn't change the fact that he died for his religion making him a martyr.

It was given by god that men would want to live and if a situation arose for men to live that they would either fight or flee so what Joseph did was natural and in self defense. I am sure you wouldn't convict anyone to death if they shot in a mob in self defense. I do not claim Joseph smith was perfect he was still human so such a reaction to the situation probably seemed best at the time.

that still doesn't answer his behavior the mob would have remitted immediately if he denied his claim and backed off. Still what about the three and eight witnesses who were some of them excommunicated? They had no reason to keep their testimony in fact they could have said at any moment that Joseph was lying and all it would do would be to help them yet they kept their testimony until their dying day.

I would never call anyone on a natural human instinct to survive no matter what yes some people can wait but tell me if those cops had a brother shot in the face next to them wouldn't they seek to kill those that killed him?

I have two words for you on this topic: "Mud Creek" (actual news paper article)

It appears that the "prophet" made a big show about being able to walk on water, but when he came to perform his miracle, some children changed the fate of Mormonism in this small county.

I talked to a man who knew the family of the kids who did this. There were many eye-witness who saw the "prophet" of Mud Creek, (Joseph Smith) sink like a stone. But I am sure you have an excuse for this one, as well.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

I don't think you are getting this whole thread.

1. There was a mob of 5000 angry people from a town where he just cheated people out of their money and tried to seduce a 13 year old girl.
2. His militia that he set up as a police force, supposedly loyal to him, suddenly didn't want to know him.
3. There was news paper that was extremely critical of him, which suddenly burned down to the ground.

So the Bible asks a good question: What blessing is it that you suffer for your own sin?

I think martyrdom is too strong of a word. I think Joseph Smith "died outside of due process" and was "murdered" by a vigilante mob. I think he died just like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Mr. Applegate.

Here is a real story of a martyr:

Hermenigildus, a Gothic prince, was the eldest son of Leovigildus, a king of the Goths, in Spain. This prince, who was originally an Arian, became a convert to the orthodox faith, by means of his wife Ingonda. When the king heard that his son had changed his religious sentiments, he stripped him of the command at Seville, where he was governor, and threatened to put him to death unless he renounced the faith he had newly embraced. The prince, in order to prevent the execution of his father's menaces, began to put himself into a posture of defense; and many of the orthodox persuasion in Spain declared for him. The king, exasperated at this act of rebellion, began to punish all the orthodox Christians who could be seized by his troops, and thus a very severe persecution commenced: he likewise marched against his son at the head of a very powerful army. The prince took refuge in Seville, from which he fled, and was at length besieged and taken at Asieta. Loaded with chains, he was sent to Seville, and at the feast of Easter refusing to receive the Eucharist from an Arian bishop, the enraged king ordered his guards to cut the prince to pieces, which they punctually performed, April 13, A.D. 586.

Foxes Book of Martyrs

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

What happened when Peter cut off the ear of the temple guard? I don't think Jesus would have condoned his actions. In the end, he fought like a fugitive, and not like a man of God.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

I lived in Sandy, UT for 2 years (very nice looking town where HBO's "Big Love" takes place), and forgive me if I'm sounding abrasive right off the bat, but I'm curious as to your opinion.

Many of the youth in Utah (I lived the between the ages of 13-15) at the time seemed very lost; abusing drugs, running away from home, lots of promisciuty, even supposed "crips and bloods" jumping one another and severly beating other kids. Lots of racism, shunning of non-mormons, religion in public schools (seminary??), etc. The movie SLC Punk comes to mind.

In my opinion, this was all due to the fact that the fastest way for Mormons to grow is to reproduce, however when you have every family on the block having 8-10 kids, it's very easy to get lost in the crowd. The majority of my classmates seemed to be longing for an identity. Some gangmembers, some junkie's, some rock stars. Not a lot of athletics nor a lot of drive. Don't get me wrong, there were still good kids there, but I have lived in 4 states and gone to 9 schools, and these were by far the strangest in the bunch.

You seem brave enough to put yourself out there, can you rebuff this point and make me see the better side of your faith?

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I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.

There are some that only employ words for the purpose of disguising their thoughts.

Would you be doing that if you'd made a conscious decision to go like a lamb to the slaughter, and lay your life down for your faith? That's the real issue. There's a difference between a human response and the response of one who is indwelt by God as a prophet or savior.

Joseph Smith claimed he was going like a lamb to the slaughter. Do you know how a lamb goes to slaughter? Without a word, without protest, without fleeing, without fighting back. That's how Christ went. He was humiliated and debased and spoke not a word. According to scripture, Christ could have destroyed the entire planet if he so desired, and yet he went willingly, quietly, without a fight.

Does Joseph Smith stand up to the example of Christ?

No.

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I love the smell of napalm in the morning...It smells like victory.

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Bugalugs: "people join the military because they are stupid and gullible."