First off Joseph smith sr. was not a prophet he was a follower of the Church that believed that his son was called of god to be the prophet he himself was no prophet yet he was a missionary. I would also consider taking any news article from this time with a grain of salt because they were so against the church they would come up with outright lies to discredit them.

1 The Lord blessed the Saints in Kirtland, Ohio, and they were happy. Elders who had left Kirtland to preach the gospel were successful, and many people joined the Church.
2 The Saints in Kirtland organized their own bank. However, the cashier was dishonest and stole a large amount of money from it, and there were other problems.
3 The depositors couldn’t get their money from the bank, and it had to be closed. Many Church members became angry and blamed Joseph Smith for the bank’s failure. His life was threatened by some who had been his friends, and several Church leaders even became enemies of the Church.
4 Joseph was disheartened by the wickedness that prevailed, but friends and righteous leaders like Brigham Young defended him, declaring that Joseph was a prophet of God and that the Church was true.
5 The enemies of the Church then turned their anger on Brigham Young, who continued to defend Joseph, and Brigham had to flee Kirtland for his own safety.
6 Evil men continued to cause trouble in Kirtland. Among other things, much to Joseph’s despair, they desecrated the temple so that it wasn’t a sacred place anymore.
7 The wicked people in Kirtland would not repent, and they were determined to kill Joseph. He had to flee Kirtland during an extremely cold winter, and his enemies, armed with guns and knives, followed him.
8 The Lord protected Joseph so that his pursuers could not find him. One night he even slept in the same house with them without their knowledge. Another time he passed his enemies on the street, and they looked at him but didn’t recognize him.
9 Joseph traveled hundreds of miles to Far West, Missouri, to visit the Saints there. Most of them were happy to see the Prophet, but some of the Church leaders in Missouri were not obeying God’s commandments and wouldn’t repent.
10 Joseph was heartsick that friends such as Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and others who had been valiant had to be excommunicated from the Church.
11 Other men were chosen to be leaders of the Church in Far West. One day Joseph visited a place near Far West called Spring Hill. However, its true name, Jesus told him, was Adam-ondi-Ahman. Anciently Jesus had blessed Adam and his family there, and someday Jesus, Adam, and other righteous people will meet there again.

Joseph smith was never involved in the seduction of a thirteen year old girl


This was probably due to their belief that the bank was Josephs fault (by the way if Joseph defrauded all the people at the bank what happened to the money?)

He fought openly against the Lords church and would not listen to the two missionaries when he was asked to stop later his entire printing press was up in smoke as a mysterious fire burnt everything he had.

Ask the owner of the print shop.

He died because he stood by his testimony that he had seen God and Jesus and they had restored the church that was set up by Jesus during his time on earth. He never defrauded anyone he never seduced anyone and he never remitted his testimony making him a martyr at his death.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...____&hideNav=1

or go to LDS.org and search up Joseph smith bank.

I believe that he fought to protect his friends and family that were in the prison with him. I think that if Jesus didn't condone his actions then he is now being punished for them but that doesn't change his validity as a prophet of god.

It is quite sad when self defense is viewed by a church to be evil.

First of I know how it is to be from a big family and I am one of eight but I will get right down to the point. In Utah the church is very close together and those out there do not have the ability to face the same trials that I and many members do out here where the nearest church is thirty minutes away and the nearest temple is four hours away so testimonies naturally grow in the face of adversity.

I am widely known and respected by all who meet me and get a chance to talk to me face to face because I live my religion. I do not just have the clothes of faith that I take off every sunday after church because out here you have to remain constant in the faith of your beliefs. There is a seperation of the strong and the weak in all religions I am sure usgrant7 knows what I am talking about.

I know that I belong to a true church and I believe and live all of its teachings I do not swear I do not smoke, drink, do drugs, act in opposition to my belief (Promiscuity) and I believe that the sacredness of procreation should be saved for the sactity of marriage. I have family in Utah and they make the statement too that those out there will wear their religion on sunday to church but not to school on monday.

I have earned the respect of all around me because no matter what I keep to my religion and if I am wrong I admit it and will try to do better in the future. I do not say this to brag or say "I am so rightous look at me" because all around my area earn respect for holding to the faith. Many around here do fall away and unfortunately we can't seem to get them back but I know that I have and always will stand for my religion in all situations no matter the wind or waves that come to strike me down.

I may not know everything but who does even bibliticians who have studied religious texts for years do not know everything about that religion that they are studying. I suggest that you talk mainly to the missionaries (because they are taught more completely than I at least for now) and they will be able to answer your questions more fully. I am still young yet I hold to my religion to the best of my knowledge and I am sorry that you have come in contact with sunday mormons but there are some in every religion.

If innocent people were involved yes.

I don't know about you but if any animal knows it is going to be killed it will fight to the death before someone has a chance to kill it. this is true for all animals especially if others are involved.

Christ died for the salvation of his people so did Joseph smith so yes he holds to the example of christ. But before you use this argument have you ever had a mob of thousands after you? If you were in jail and you had a gun and friends and family in the cell with you wouldn't you fight to the death to protect them? I rue the day when one who stands in defense of his friends and family is attacked for using a gun against thousands. You should read the book The Fate of the Persecutors of the Prophet Joseph Smith. you will see exactly how God dealt with these men.

I've risked dying for work, daily. I've seen men face death on the job. None of them did it looking like Joseph Smith, scrabbling like a rat to escape from a cage.

I have no respect for your prophet. I've seen men with no faith at all face death more bravely than your prophet did.

__________________
Palin/McCain - '08

Tell me if this is an accurate summary.

1) There are some special plates that are the entire basis for LDS.
2) These plates are not on earth.
3) There are special rocks that help decifer the plates. These rocks are on earth but only a few people have seen them.
4) Only Joseph Smith was able to use the rocks to read the plates.
5) When asked to re-decifer portions of the book of Mormon, he was unable to duplicate the same translations.

So in conclusion, the entire religion is based on something not on earth, that can only be translated by Joseph Smith using special rocks which a few people claim to have seen.

Questions:
Assuming that there are in fact some special rocks in a vault somewhere, what would indicate that they are special?
When seeing the rocks does it become obvious that they are not odinary or easily created using Joseph Smith era technology?

Is there any empirical evidence what-so-ever to suggest or prove that Mr. Smith didn't make it all up?

Example:
Smith "I know the truth about God. I can prove it because I have a cucumber."
Skeptic "What does that prove?"
Smith "Because this cucumber acts as a key that opens a magic door to the domain of God"
Skeptic "AWSOME! Where is the door?"
Smith "It is not on earth. But I still have the cucumber."
Skeptic "Can I see the cucumber?"
Smith "No. Because you don't have enough faith. But if you did see it you would know it is special."
Skeptic "Why?"
Smith "Because the cucumber has "GOD KEY" carved into the side."
No longer a Skeptic "Cool, lets make people tithe!"
Smith "MUHAHAHA, now you've got it!"

20 years later..

Former Skeptic "I have a mansion and 12 wives under the age of 22. I have seen the cucumber, it is proof that Smith knows God"

Repeat cycle.


Ixtellor

P.S. Link there is no need to debate usgrant. He is using his magic book to argue against your magic book. He has the exact same amount of empirical evidence to prove his faith is right and yours is wrong, as you do.
Except he doesn't have any magic rocks that some one saw once, to prove his case. So I guess you are winning.

P.P.S. Correction: Only blind faith is winning.


P.S.

__________________
_______________________________________
George W. Bush "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building"

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

You don't have to have respect for the Prophet but I am sure that if these men knew that innocent people were nearby they would do all they could to protect them. I guess that means you don't respect anyone who protects the innocent if they use a gun.

Joseph smith was not the only one that was able to use the seer stones. and I don't know what you mean by redicifer please explain.

Well God isn't on earth yet we believe in him don't we?

One could look through them at any text no matter the language and it would appear in their native language.

Absolutely these stones were handed to the ancient Prophets to help in decifering religious texts and to recieve new revelation by God.

Well we have the testimony of the three and eight witnesses and we each recieve our individual witness from Heavenly Father as to the validity of the Book of Mormon and the current prophets.

(LOL) but irrelevant the bible was based off plates of brass so why is it so hard to believe that the Book of Mormon was based on plates of gold. Let me remind you that neither the Bible's nor the Book of Mormon's original state was ever found. What is so hard to believe about a man finding an ancient religious text that proves the validity of Christ and translating it. Sure God helped in the translation and Joseph smith did recieve visions but this is no different than the Prophets of old.


I do not blindly follow anything that is terribly stupid for anyone to do I simply take facts. Sure not everything is provable using "empirical evidence" but using the spirit one can recieve a witness of the validity or the falsehood of anything. All it takes is a little faith.