first article of faith of the Mormon Religon. "We believe in God the eternal father and in his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost."

They were so very happy that they ran him out of town.
Why did they "organize their own bank"? You didn't see Jesus organizing his own bank. None of the disciples organized their own bank. The Puritans didn't organize their own bank. The Amish. The Baptists. We all work within the system. Render unto Caesar? And why did one of the "Saints" steal money from the bank? Why didn't the towns people go after that guy? The lies just keep falling in on themselves.
I think they absolutely knew who to blame.
He was mad because he got caught. The state was going to shut him down, and he knew it. So why not make up some story to cover your own butt. It was plain to the towns people who had their money.
Run, because people get angry when you cheat them out of their hard work and pay.
How is that possible? The Bible says that the Temple has moved from buildings made of brick and mortar to the very hearts of men. "YOU are the temple of the Holy Spirit." If he was ushering in the new age of spirituality, he sure took a few steps back.
Because they knew who had the money.
Oh, and I suppose you were there to witness this... Oh, wait, no, it is Joseph
Smith telling us this, again, isn't it? Right.....
Why is it that when Joseph shows up, everywhere, there is opposition to him, that suddenly they are apostates? Why is that?
Didn't they sign the DOC or the POGP? If I found out that this whole thing was a crock of lies, I would be upset too.
I think the day has been moved several times, now, hasn't it...
Oh, I don't know about that. Does the name The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of LDS apostle Heber C. Kimball, she was 13, wasn't she? When Mr. Smith married her. Most of his wives were under the age of 18, were they not?
He didn't even bother to pay them back. What a joke.
Oh, so the "missionaries" is really code for "mercenaries" isn't it? Joseph took the money he was trusted with, hired a small army to keep order, and the Gov. of the State had to bring in troop to restore order. Isn't that a more accurate statement?
I would, but he's dead. Oh, and according to the United States Constitution, destruction of private property to prevent the free exercise of the press is a crime of "biblical" proportions. That is not the way to silence critics. He violated the law.
He didn't have a chance to remit anything. He was not protecting his family. He was protecting himself. He was in the process of leaving his brother behind as he was jumping out of the window.

I have read and re-read your comments, Link (of video gaming fame) and I can only conclude one thing:

LDS people are less interested in the facts, as they are in preserving their religion. Ixtellor was correct. Lets all bow down to the magical cucumber and it's prophet Joseph Smith.

__________________
"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

TRANSLATION

We, the LDS Church (not the reformed LDS church, or the Reorganized LDS Church, or any Bible believing non-LDS church) think often about God in a kind-a Mr. and Mrs. god kind-a way, His boy jesus (pronounced hay-soos) and his wayword son Lucifer (not the fake bones found in Africa, but close) and the holy specter (roaming about the earth, seeking who he may devour).

Did I get that right?

__________________
"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

I should have used the word retranslate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_116_pages

Harris lost 116 pages known as the Book of Lehi

Smith refused to retranslate them and game a lame excuse. It is plausible that he didn't want to retranslate them because he could not.
So instead he told the same stories but in a different manner and called it the Book of Nephi

No I don't.
I only believe in empirical evidence.

If the LSD church produced the stones and they could actually tranlate any text into a person's native language. That would be the greatest miracle in the history of man kind and the entire world would convert at once.

So why make teenagers bang on doors for 2 years instead of just producing the greatest artifact in the history of the world.

My guess, is because the stone do not do any such thing, and would turn out to be two ordinary rocks.


You have no evidence of this.


There is no empirical reason to believe a person who tells you stories.
Do the names David Korresh and Jim Jones mean anything to you?
They had LOTS of witnesses also.


There is no empirical reason to believe in either story.

That would be evidence AGAINSt both then.

Because there are no:
Ancient religious texts on earth - according to you.
There are supposedly some magic rocks, that no one can see except people with a vested interest in maintaining the church.
These rocks are supposedly capable of the greatest miracle in the history of man kind, but you don't want to show us.

Why is it that people with magic powers never want to prove it?

Name one single fact that you have provided.
Everything you believe is based no the word of other fallible human beings, who happen to work for and have a vested interested in the church.

Maybe you are not aware, but people lie. Even very nice and trustworthy people. (See Clinton and Bush)

1. Actually empiricial evidence is the only thing that ever proves anything.

2. Lots of religions use the spirit to receive witness. Since there are many FAR larger religions than your own, why do you assume that 95% of the world is lying about receiving spiritual witness (hindus, Buddists, Christians, Muslism...) and assume that your tiny little religion is the correct one.

How do you know that the "spiritual witness" you are receiving is not from the devil?

How do you know that the "spiritual witness" that FAR greater portions of the world claim to receive are not true?

Jim Jones had faith.
David Korresh had faith.
The guys in black clothes, nike shoes, and no testicles had faith.


Ixtellor

__________________
_______________________________________
George W. Bush "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building"

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

They liked to blame him instead of themselves for their troubles.

From what I recall the banks were against the Mormons too so it was necessary to start one to save the money of the saints. Also Jesus had need of Money in his day too but he got his from a fish. Joseph had the ability at the time to allow a bank to be organized nothing more than that but feel free to blame him for it this is no different than Millions of others.

Correct anyone but themselves.

So tell me what ever happened to all the money that Joseph stole because it is painfully obvious that he didn't have it.

Run when people threaten your life.

The Temples are our houses of the Lord within which sacred ordinances could be performed look on the bible the lord didn't say get rid of the temples he said that we are a temple too.

They thought they knew but like I said they didn't want to blame themselves for the failure of the bank.

No it isn't as a matter of fact Joseph takes very little credit for anything he did and gave it all to the lord. I do believe that this account came from Brigham young.

People will oppose the truth everywhere that Jesus showed up there was opposition to him does that make him a liar and unbelievable. Peter denied christ three times too.

They never dropped their testimony though. Even to the death they still held to their testimony and I still can't see why if it was false.

What day?

Maybe but being legally maried to one doesn;t make it seduction.

You don't know that he didn't try and what kind of position was he in to get the money to pay them back?

The missionaries were not present at the time of the fire and arrived in the aftermath of the fire. I guess by your argument Elija was a mercenary for burning the priests of Baal.

He didn't burn it down then did he?

His brother was killed long before Joseph ever got near the window and I hate to think that if you were in jail with your brother and friends and you had the slightest opportunity to defend them with a gun that you would rather let it happen and have them kill all of you.

It seems like more people are interested into distorting facts out of preportion to try and make them seem illogical. Once again I ask How can this church be false because no one has seen the plates when no one has seen the brass plates that the bible was written on either? Why is it that because one is in such a place of influence in a religious organization that everything he does is wrong and evil even if there is overwhelming proof of the opposite?

He did not translate the 116 pages again because the lost manuscript was given to conspiring men who changed it and whould have used it to say he had no gift if he tried to retranslate it again. so he translated from a smaller set of plates which went into the book of nephi.

God will be empiricle enough for you when he comes.

You don't seem to get it it is not "Show us a sign that we might believe" it needs to be we believe and if thou so desirest show us a sign that our faith is right.

Only biblical evidence.

I still don't know any Koresh and whatnot but you refusing to pray sincerely about anything is a good reason why you don't recieve the witness from god.

We do not believe in magic we believe in science.

I do not take my witness from a person I get it from God who has given me a witness of the validity of the Book of Mormon.

1.Tell that to physicists.
2.Because ours was the only one that was completely and entirely formed by christ and under his direct supervision at all times.

The devil has a different feeling and he would not allow any witness of anything. He would rather you believe that there is no god or that he doesn't care than to give you a witness to a religion that believes that Christ still loves us and will listen and that we can live together with him one day.

I don't if they recieve a witness that something is true concerning christ they probably have recieved a valid witness. All have some truth just not the entirity of it.

I still don't know these people.

No sir you only got a literal translation which is not always correct. you missed the entire spirit of the matter

Who were the men?
How many people even knew that Mr. Smith was writing a new book?

Again, you take the words of Mr. Smith at face value. It seems that no matter what Mr. Smith claims you will believe it.


I totally agree.
Until that day I will remain skeptical.

How will you react if a god shows up and he says "I am Muslim, convert or burn in hell."

Which ever god shows up first, I will convert to them.
(No god is ever going to show up ever , ever)

Lets follow the logic:
1) Your church is desperatly trying to convert as many people as possible to what you consider the one true faith.
2) You supposedly have the greatest artifact in the history of man kind that would beyond any shadow of doubt be an undenible proof that your are the one true faith.
3) You won't show the greatest artifact in the history of the world, in fact you have NEVER seen it, and are taking the word of others who claim to have seen it. And all those people have a vested interest in the Church.

4) Your church has the capacity to end all the suffering in the world, save every single soul, create heaven on earth, have a 100% conversion rate, and end every single false religion in about 120 seconds. Yet you choose not too.

5) None of this strikes you as odd or out of place.

A bold faced lie.
Science = the scientific method.
You have NEVER applied the scientifc method to your religion.
You believe in your religion inspite of the fact that it is the antithesis of science.


You claim to be educated and a scientist yet you don't know the 3 most famous cults in the history of America.
The name Jim Jones means nothing to you. I can not even fathom how that is conceivable.

I shall end on an analogy:

Physist "I have discovered the unifying theory of everthing"
Link "AWSOME ( assuming you know what that is - if you do not - that is incontravertiable proof that you are a fraud) WHAT IS IT???
Physist "I can't show it to you or tell you about it, you have to have faith"
Link "Why should I trust you?"
Physist "Because I have a toilet that can be used to flush the holy water of Nephi"
Link "Can I see the toilet?"
Physist "No."
Link "Awsome - lets start a college and teach the unifying theory of everything"
Physist "Can you say tuition!!"


Ixtellor

P.S. I don't know who Walter Cronkite is and I want to be taken seriously.

__________________
_______________________________________
George W. Bush "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building"

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

HE was their TROUBLE!!!! HE is the guy who called the shots!!! Put down your crack pipe, man! Listen to yourself!

Jesus didn't need money! He owns everything! Listen to yourself! You sound like a woman who's husband keeps beating her up every time she comes home, and when the cops come to arrest her dirt-bag husband, she protects him. I would bet you have family who are Mormon. I would be your whole life would blow up if you lost your "faith".

I don't know, maybe he bought some more Egyptian artifacts. Or maybe he opened another bar in Utah. Or maybe a casino!

Read Foxes book of martyrs. Again... you seem to be scared by that book. But in it, you will read about real people, and real courage.

Temples are brick and mortar. Why do you think God felt more at home in a tent?

I pray you never work for the FBI, and you are a classic example of why Mitt Romney could never be president.

Brigham Young manufactured a religion out of a looser's life. He is your grand architect, not Joseph Smith. And we are to believe him, oh most sacred prophet of the church? Why is it that the sake holders in religious organizations always live high on the hog? Why? Was B.Y. going to say, "Nope, Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, he actually made the whole thing up."

I don't think you can defend the errors in the Mormon faith by denying the one J.S. was supposed to be serving. Isn't that kinda bass-ackwards...?

Hmmm... Interesting...

BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindred’s, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens.. And the honor be to the Father, & to the Son, & to the Holy Ghost, which is One God. Amen.' Signed: Oliver Cowdery & David Whitmer & Martin Harris

So look closely: Sounds like they were very credible witnesses.

The day of Jesus (God), Adam(the bringer of sin and death into this world), and "other righteous people" (all Mormons, no doubt) gathering...

Being married to a child doesn't make "what" seduction??!! I don't know, ask Warren Jeffs. I am sure they will let him out of jail long enough to talk to you.

Ulysses S. Grant was innocently used by a con-man to defraud people of $250,000.00 of their hard earned money, back in the 1800's, that was no small chunk of change. He spent the rest of his life, down to his dying day, to pay them back. Are you telling me that dedicating your life to paying those people back, wasn't worth it, for the prophet of the LDS church??? HA! So much for the righteous few...
He had thousands of followers!!! He could have raised the money in a week. He could have prayed that God would help him to return that money. But he didn't. Wanna know why??? I will give you a few guesses...

I don't think Elijah had a Bic back then. And besides, if you knew your Bible as much as the excuses the LDS church trains you on, you would know that he poured water on the sacrifice and the wood. And he didn't even expect that God would consume the prophets of Baal. So, by your logic, (it is so telling, btw) it was Elijah who made the fire come, not God. Which, by association, would presume that you don't even believe your own words, much less Joseph Smith. Just how much would you have to give up, if you walked away? Poor rich young ruler, no doubt.

I don't think he had the courage to do it himself.

I doubt whether or not he had time to even check his pulse. Read the events, again... And if I was in jail with my brother, accused of things that would have pissed off more than five thousand people, you can bet your bottom dollar I wouldn't have tried to shot my way out. I guess its time to go back to the Bible. Read how Peter and Paul were arrested and broken out of jail. If God wanted J.S. and his brother out of jail, he would have gotten them out. If I was innocent, I would have rejoiced in the face of the mob, as Stephan did. I would have been grateful for the chance to be a martyr for the Lord and die in his service. I would have looked them in the eye and forgiven them. But J.S. wasn't yelling, "forgive them!" as he was shot. He left his brother to die and he was trying to slime his way out by taking the lives of people who were justly angry at him. Good men of moral conscience do things like humble themselves and seek forgiveness.

I don't think anyone here is distorting facts, except you...

Brass????? LOL Oh, I know... The Brass Plates the Bible came on. Who told you the Bible was written on Brass? When God writes something down, it is usually on stone. When he asks someone else to write it down, he typically used something lighter than brass. Can you imagine how heavy the brass plates were when Paul was carving 1st Corinthians? You have got to be kidding me!

So far, the only "overwhelming proof" I have seen is on the side of J.S. being a cheat and a liar. FYI - stealing peoples money and lying about who God is, are serious evils... The LDS church is the same as any other organization more interested in sustaining itself than facing the truth.
Keep those arguments coming, Link. Fascinating tool for training more people to go to Hill Comora and sharing with the LDS people that come there every year.

__________________
"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address