I am not forced to believe anything.

Through mutation the genome differs an inaccurate sample of DNA from an inbred race could throw off any DNA evidence

People that originate from both mongolian and european descent could not be told they originated from one or the other unless the mitochondrial DNA was of the one in either of the places.

You seem to be forced to believe that laws of science are all known to mankind. Jesus could very well have walked on water if he knew the laws of science that allowed him to do so. To cure death would be very easy if you knew what laws to use. To say this is impossible or that is impossible is what we call Titanic talk.

First off some people may be used by God to bring about his plan whether that means you donating money to save a girl doesn't mean that God had nothing to do with it.

The unanswered prayers argument is immensly juvenile as it says I prayed about it and I didn't get it so there is no God. If you look at death through a religious point of view God wanted her family home, Meaning the girls. No ammount of prayer or fasting will entice God to do something that is not for the benefit of his children as a whole so who knows why God wanted her family home just know it is for a wise purpose which we know not.

Who says there isn't?

Cows have two horns that are an extension of its skull coming out of two sides of its head it is not impossible to think that a horse might grow a horn out of the middle of it. As for the teapots I guess that all depends on where we throw our trash.

I have nothing against you, so please refrain from throwing out words like "juvenile". Im here to have an intellectual debate on the topic (EVERY topic I post on). Clearly we dont agree on this issue though and thats fine, we dont have to.

However you started a thread with your faith as the subject, so naturally there are going to be those of us who are going to feel compelled to present our issues with it.

These "anti LDS" sites that you talk about simply are throwing out discrepencies in the bible and book of Mormon. So if you dont like these sites giving out factual information that is your problem, these things are verifiable however.

Its also well know that Joseph Smith would NOT translate when called upon to do so. Why does religion always have to be mysterious?? If he could prove his faith why wouldnt he have done it??

As for the quote of yours that I quoted on here.....Im sorry but I dont buy into that stuff about how "God intended for them to die".

Let me tell you why. Maybe you could make that argument if a family say died in a car crash or something. But the family of this girl that I sponsor have been dirt poor, starving and struggling for their ENTIRE lives.

Take your worst day in your entire life, multiply it by 100 and you have just describe the BEST day in this families life.

So if your going to say that God intended for them to live a life which is quite frankly a living hell, then to make it even worse by taking away their sole provider and some of their sons I say that either there is no God...or WORSE that God is evil.

Why put human beings on this Earth only to have them suffer and then die?? I dont buy into all that "life is a trial" stuff for a second.

Not when you have scum like Paris Hilton being a really crappy person and yet living a life of luxury.

So ill say it again, although I respect your opinions, I feel that your faith is nothing more than an older version of Scientology that can essentially be disproven but that has brainwashed people into believing bits and pieces of it even though history itself disagrees with alot of what you believe to be truth.

I look at the Mormon faith and see alot of innacuracies, a not so trustworthy founder (Joseph Smith), a huge lack of reasonable thinking when it comes to their faith in comparison to history and science, and quite frankly some very serious question marks in all aspects of the church both past AND present.

Now with that said, some of my good friends are Mormon and I dont have any problems with any of you. I just think that you Mormons prefer BLIND faith to reality.

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

I'm a firm beliver that religion is subjective.

__________________
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
George S. Patton

You are putting words in my mouth. I didn't in any way say Jesus walking on water is impossible or that it did not happen. I simply said it is a matter of faith. If YOU want to believe it, fine, I have no problem. Just remember that many Faith traditions are full of miracles, that doesn't mean everything written in a book is true. The individual case of Jesus walking on water has no scientific, verifiable facts to trace.

Jesus walking on water shouldn't be the determining factor in whether one believes in Jesus anyways, it should be His teachings:

Is it better to go around stoning every sinner or forgiving?

Should we run around and criticize people for their small mistakes or work to fix our own mistakes?

Is it better to love your enemy or hate them?

Is it better to love God with everything you've got or not?

Is it better to love your neighbor as your self and store up treasures in heaven or just pile up riches here on earth so when we die someone else can seize them?

Which one of the above teachings has anything to do with miracles?

That is what people should judge Jesus on, not how many people he raised from the dead who still died a few years later anyways. Any miracles were meant to wake up the people out of their spiritual slumber who were standing around at the time, and even with all those miracles only a handful of humans actually listened to him.

Miracles of Jesus or Krishna or Buddha or Muhammad or Moses or Zoroaster can't be proven to have taken place, but some things can, like DNA evidence. The DNA evidence states that no one that Smith claims came to America did so.

In my own personal study of Smith, I have a hard time believing anything he says. Lack of any DNA evidence is just one of many, many, factual, scientific, and spiritual problems and absurdities I and many others have with his claims.

Excellent, post!!!

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson

I was not reffering to you as juvenile I said that that frame of mind is juvenile as it very well is many kids think their parents hate them for not giving them what they want when they want it.

I would like to hear these discrepencies as I am in a debate on a religious forum and almost all of them agree that the BOM releases no information not already accepted by most christianity. They have a problem with Doctrine and Covenants and The POGP.

You seem to have dodged around my statement. Who knows why God wanted them back maybe they had a work to do on the other side, maybe it was God's means of bringing relief to their family maybe it was so that the Girl met you or recieved help from you. No one knows the mind or will of God but having said that I am not disagreeing that this girls life may have been terrible but to say God is evil for not intervening. I know many who have had terrible lives where their mother walked out on them their father sexually abused them and threw them through walls. where they went for weeks without a decent meal and yet they still thought that God had blessed them. Life is a trial whether anyone wants to believe it or not it is a proving ground for the religious and for the non it is an unfair existance that is ended too quickly.

All I know is that God took them home for a reason and this girl stayed for a reason it is time to find out what that reason is.

"It is not a "fact" that Jesus Christ walked on water"
Seemed to imply that you were saying that he couldn't have walked on water and I do agree that miracles do not make a believer out of a non-believer.

You haven't read Ether have you well I will give it to you in a nutshell. After the tower of Babel a family of men left Asia and India and journeyed to the americas where they grew and prospered and wiped each other out until only one survived. Now we also believe that many came over on the land bridge probably significantly more than were present in America at the time. Now with all the opposing genetic influence on the genes of The remaining Lamanites the true heritage of these people could have changed entirely giving few if any references to their true heritage. Now don't go and tell me that this can't happen because it happens in nature all the time look it up they are called "lost species" as they are similar to an original yet very little to no genetics are similar.

What else did Joseph "Say" or "do" that you seem to hate his techings so?

And here is my problem with what you are saying....You DONT "know" that "God" took them home for a reason. That is what I dont like about religion, there are a whole lot of assumptions and not any proof.

Clearly we aren't going to see each others point of view on this topic, so at this point the whole religious debate in regards to whether its real or not (in this thread) is over for me. I live in Utah, so clearly I know how pointless it is to keep debating with a Mormon about their religion. I have yet to ever find one who would criticize anything about their own religion or admit any of its innaccuracies or faults. And you know what....Thats fine, at the end of the day it doesn't affect me at all. I am happy with the knowledge that I have and the life that I lead.

All im going to say in closing is that if there truly is a God and he/she/it has allowed all of these problems in the world to take place. All the pain and suffering and misery in the world......The honestly I think he/she/it is sick and wacky and I want nothing to do with "God"

Some of you have reasons you can come up with as to why "God" allows these things to take place. Thats fine, I respect your beliefs. Im just saying for me that I would rather that there isnt a god, because if there is one, then with my logic its not a "nice" God lol.

__________________
"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments"

--George Washington

"Never spend your money before you have earned it."

--Thomas Jefferson

"One man with courage is a majority."

--Thomas Jefferson