Good question?

It is a topic few appreciate, yet the rules haven't changed since the "garden".

Hell is a real place. People go there if they aren't reconciled with God. The story was written to bring that closer to people's conscience. Why I brought this story, here, was because I wanted to remind people of why we evangelicals are so serious about the ultimate destination of people's souls. As Christians, if we don't take the Bible for what it says about sin and death, seriously, then how can we tell a morally bankrupt nation, that there is something to fear at all?

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

My first thought was how the story seemed to allow people to blame others for where they are. IMHO, no matter what hell is like, part of it would surely be that the person would have no illusions about why he is there. Regret may be a stronger emotion than hate? I think so. It goes to the perfection of God that every man will be judged for himself - that each soul had a choice and chose pride. I believe that Satan only has the power that people give him. He can't fool someone. They have to choose to be fooled.

My stronger disagreement with the story is the lack of grace. I see life from a completely opposite viewpoint. It's not the horrors that will befall you if you choose unwisely, it's the great gifts you receive when you choose Christ. It's the difference between running away from something and running toward something.

I can go on, but leaving tomorrow and I want to see what you think.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

You wrote this while I was writing the post above.

Fear. Fear cannot lead to faith. Fear is the root of doubt and guilt.

Here I go trying to think of specific scripture..... I stink at this.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

Good, now let us apply this to Christianity where Heaven and Hell exist on earth. (I'm not sure why most Christians cannot understand this metaphor)

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"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." - Alexander Pope

let me tell you a story to illustrate my beliefs.

Say that you had a son. And that son in some way fell short of your expectations. Maybe he got a DUI, or failed a class in school, or maybe he just one day told you to go to hell.

Because of your son's failures, you decided that you would enact a penalty. You would douse him in gasoline and set him on fire. And that fire wouldn't burn for a few minutes, it would burn for an eternity.

What do you think any humane society on earth would do with you for that behavior?

And why do you hold your god to a lesser standard than you hold yourself?

As a parent, is there ANY WAY that you could sentence your child to an eternity of burning torture? What act could possibly be bad enough to warrant that consequence?

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I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls.

Which creator? Was it Zeus? Or Allah? Or Brahma? Or perhaps the Great Spirit?

HOw do you know that your particular tribal deity (YHWH) is "the one"? You don't. I doubt you've ever even considered the writings that tell about Brahma's creation of the universe. You probably consider them "mythology."

Which is exactly how I think about YOUR holy book.

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I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls.

So, basically, back to the three part story that makes us think. Mostly? What it makes me think? Is that your god is an ass. An evil, abusive, sadistic ass.

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I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls.

Are you really arguing that God is an autocratic tyrant, and we should worship him because he'll hurt us if we don't?

In your example, I'd probably do what I had to do. But I wouldn't worship him, or respect him, or love him. I'd hate him.

I refuse to believe that any God worth the name would behave like that. So therefore I'm willing to risk eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation in order to live a life of intellectual integrity, and not worship any God that behaves like that.

No, I'd think he was a nutcase. I didn't ask for him to kill his son. I was perfectly fine before; all I needed was to be left alone.

Further, I should be grateful because he set up these crazy rules, then in his great benevolence suspended them for me? That's like me kidnapping someone, terrorizing them and promising to kill them. Then I change my mind and let them go. Should I expect them to think fondly of me?

How about not setting up crazy rules in the first place?

So again, you're saying that "these are the rules", and I need to live by them and respect them.

I disagree. Sure, God, if He exists, gets to set the rules. But I don't have to embrace them. Just like I don't have to respect the autocratic king.

I've already explained that, if the rules are as you say they are, that I don't respect any God who would play shell games with people's souls.

Now, could I take the cowardly way out and do it God's way to avoid punishment? Sure.

But I prefer to live with integrity and accept the consequences, if there are any. God can make me suffer, if he wishes; but he cannot make me respect a God and a system that doesn't deserve respect.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

That's it, exactly. I am less afraid of being tortured after death by an invisible God than I am having to bend my mind into all sorts of unethical and dishonest contortions to avoid it.

I'd rather die as a brave woman on her feet than live as a coward on her knees to an unjust tyrant. And yes, it is just that serious to me.

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I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls.

Part of faith is the knowledge of God's perfect judgment. You can't go through life thinking that someone may go to hell because of something YOU did or didn't do. You don't need to know whether someone went to heaven or hell, you just need to trust Him.

1 John 3:18-21
18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.


Doubt, fear and guilt. Feeling of unworthiness. They can't be part of faith. They are the antithesis of trust. They are incompatible with faith and hope (elpis). Faith, hope and love are great things. They lead to trust and trust is what gives us both power and peace.

Psalms 46:2
Therefore we will not fear, though the earth give way
and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea,

Psalms 46:10
"Be still, and know that I am God;

I may not be the best at expressing things in the written word, but I tried. I don't like to be preachy. Then again, I will write what I think as clearly as I can and if it seems preachy, oh well.

I'm sorry I can't be here for the next few days. I know I would enjoy this discussion and I'll get back to it as soon as I can. Trust is probably my favorite topic. I have very personal experience with the power of trust as well as the evil of fear.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt