Have a safe trip, 12th

Thanks, Ted.... I'm procrastinating now. I'm very good at it.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

My qoute from a long time ago on a different board: I would rather walk head unbowed into hell then bow as the servile slave to a God that would send people to hell to begin with.

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sputterman: "Aiding the enemy? If the truth aids the enemy then we are in the wrong war."

Look at the way He dealt with Hophney and Phinious, Ananias and Sophira (spelling may be off), the prophits of Baal, and Sodam and Ghomorah. He's judgment is sure, and his ability to discern the hearts of men and women is infinate.

Look at the way He dealt with David, Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and even Saul. Merciful and longsuffering, was he.

If the creator of a thing, chooses to set it on fire and destroy it, then so be it. If the creator of a thing, chooses to elevate it, set it up for prosperity and good fortune, then so be it.

However, ignoring the fundimental point that he sets the rules, can invite calamity on yourselves. Fine, if you dont want to play by the rules, then don't be surprised when the sentence is handed down.

But as a person who understands a good deal about the pardon, I took it. I am explaining that everyone has violated the rules, everyone. If you deliberately say to the judge, screw you! Then who is to blame the judge for passing sentence.

No one is gonig to hell for a DUI, or a speeding ticket. It was much more simple than that. It was eating a piece of fruit. Moses didn't enter the promise land because he hit the rock. Ananias and Sophira didn't live past the end of the day after lying. The youths were mauled by bears for teasing the prophit. Thousands were consumed by the earth for having a party and bowing to a golden idol. The temple priest was killed because he touched the Ark of the Covenant.

God expects that we obey him. Since that is impossible, he gave us a pardon through His Son. Yes, the punishment is severe, and yes the judgment is sure. But the grace extended to those who would believe is generous beyond measure.

God's grace is suffient to cover a multitude of sin. How can you fault God, who has both set the rules, and provided a way to obtain a pardon, if you violate the rules. The pardon is the only way a perfect, God could ever have fellowship with an imperfect man.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

Finally something I know about! Yeah I saw that in the first IndianaJones movie.

So let me get this straight.

God creates eden.
He puts the fruit in the garden and tells the humans that he created not to eat it.
But, he built them specifically with the desire TO eat it.
Having set up that ill-fated scenario, when they do, in fact, EAT the fruit, he curses them.

He then lets them breed for a while, and then when they exactly as he programmed them to act in the first place, as creator, he drowns them, saving one family. That family incestuously breeds to repopulate the earth while God busies himself creating hell.

After creating hell, and setting up the whole sin scenario, he creates his son so he can kill his son to save the people he shouldn't be sending to hell in the first place.

Yeah.

That seems logical to me. I can see why you would want to believe this.

And all I have to do to live forever is believe this? Yeah, don't really see that happening.

Or we could go with something more Occam's razorlike....

We're curious little primates with an intense need to explain the universe.

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I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls.

Yeah, dude? You're not helping your god's case here. Any god who has children mauled by bears for teasing a priest has no sense of proportion. In fact, generically speaking, the only type of being that could come up with punishments this messed up is a human being.

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I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls.

But is the creation required to like it? Am I allowed to be just a little aggrieved at such careless treatment? Or should I simply be grateful that I existed at all, so the painful, fiery, arbitrary end shouldn't bother me in the least?

Me, I prefer my gods to be a little less capricious.

My point is, just because the rules exist doesn't mean they are worthy of respect. A bad rule is a bad rule. And a God who would set up and enforce bad rules is a bastard.

Wow. This God sounds like such a swell guy. You're even defending the bears mauling kids.

Yet another example. Why does God expect the impossible from his creations, and punish those who fall short? It's a rigged game.

So, again, you're saying that I shouldn't complain that God set up such stupid, impossible rules to begin with. I should simply be grateful that, having dangled me over the alligator pit, he throws his son in instead. I should be grateful to my kidnapper and torturer.

Because the rules are sadistic and unjust.

Okay, 180-degree turn in one sentence. Now you're saying that it's not about punishment; it's about making men perfect enough to be in fellowship with God.

That's much better than "worship God or else he'll hurt you." But I still don't see why belief in Christianity is a reasonable separation point. You have not addressed this point: If someone lives an exemplary life but is a practicing Hindu (or Buddhist, or agnostic, or whatever), do they go to hell? If not, why not? If so, why should I respect a God that would do such a thing?

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

Follow me for a sec...

1. God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, and the ultimate authority on all things.
2. In order to freely choose Him, there has to be an alternative. Otherwise there isn't a choice.
3. If "A" = all that is good. Then the alternative must be what? The absence of good.

I am sorry that some of you can't permit God to be who he is. The Bible says that the "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". Do you hate the D.A.'s office because he sent your son to prison for his third DUI?

What would God be if there were no rules to live by? Where would mercy be, if there was nothing to forgive?

I understand where you are coming from. I appreciate your honesty.

But if you ever lied, cheated, stole, or any number of other things, then why are you surprised if you are to be held accountable for your actions? And why is there no shame, for doing the things you know you should not do?

I agree with 12th, God is full of mercy. He endures well past the point where he has every right to just shut the whole thing down. Hearing so many people unable to see that is why my heart is heavy, this coming Easter.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

Choose me, or I'll torture you forever.

Your god is like an abusive husband. "I'm always right. Love me. Praise me. If you don't, I'll beat you."

That's some messed up thinking there, dude. An omnipotent being could have set up any sort of system. You've definitely picked a winner. Or weiner, as it were.

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I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls.