Is it impossible for you to conceive of a scenario in which God isn't an evil tyrant threatening you with eternal torture for breaking the rules? Where mercy just happens, without creating all of these arbitrary rules?

A merciful God would not be able to endure the pain of sending sentient beings to an eternity of torture.

Frankly, I hope your beliefs do weigh heavily on you at easter. They're, for lack of a better word...EVIL.

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I'll get nicer when you get smarter.

No. I wouldn't hate the DA because my son would eventually get out of prison . Eternal punishment and torture for temporal sins is completely immoral.

The Christians who can't see this remind me of people who collaborate with dictatorships just so they can protect themselves for harm. They are willing to go along with evil just so that evil doesn't affect them. Any one it does affect 1. obviously deserves it in their minds, 2. it "god's will" (a logical falacy called an argument from authority), or 3. they simply say "it's unfortunate, but it was there choice."

That is WRONG! In Christianity there isn't choice, THERE IS COERCION. If you simply stand by and don't take a stand against it, then you are unprincipled and the world has no use for you.

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sputterman: "Aiding the enemy? If the truth aids the enemy then we are in the wrong war."

Fair and good, but most choices are made within a given set of facts. Your God wants us to choose -- with eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation hanging in the balance -- with incomplete information.

"Before you are two unmarked doors. Behind one door, salvation and eternal joy! Behind the other door, eternal torment!" Would you consider such a contest anything but sadistic?

You misunderstand. God, if he exists, is what he is. But it's up to me whether I want to worship him or not. The God you're describing here is not one I would worship.

I could get behind the "God is love" version of Christianity, because that God isn't a capricious sadist. But this one is.

Nope. Because that rule is reasonable, and everything was laid out beforehand. Nothing was hidden.

In the case of God, however, it's as if no one knows whether the DA exists or not. Maybe the real DA is the one in the next town over, where DUI is fine but eating vegetables on Tuesday isn't. Without knowing which D.A. is real, you don't know which set of rules is real.

Mercy and forgiveness is all well and good. Eternal punishment for honest choices in the face of insufficient information is not.

I've already said that if there is a heaven, then I would expect to be judged on the totality of my life, good or bad -- not on a trifle like which religion I chose to follow.

What gives you this idea?

The only way there would be no shame is if the rule itself was illegitimate. If God forbade me from reading books or loving my wife, I'd violate those rules and feel no shame.

You still haven't answered my question about whether an exemplary person who happens to be nonChristian will go to hell.

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Man up.

I would like to know who created hell, also, while you're at it.

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I'll get nicer when you get smarter.

Well, there is the immorality of heaven, then, too. Because if the judge is not making any apology for hell, then heaven should also be without apology.

Eternal suffering, versus eternal freedom from suffering.

The virtue of the reward is equal to the deserving of the punishment. The fact that they exist and that God created them both, is within His divine prerogative.

Be angry at him for that system. Stay awake at night and spend your time cursing Him for the world He created. But when you are in one place or the other, the one thing you will know for sure, is who's in charge. He makes no apology for the rules, He just makes it clear who's side you should be on and gives you the power to choose.

I can't pretend to explain His motives. I can only point out his provision.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

USG, I've got a question as well.. What are the chances that God *has* dammed America?

America, like all other countries in the world, has a wealth of individuals. People who just want to get along. People who want to excel. People who want to retire fat and happy. People who want to make a difference.

That's what is great about the United States. We have a cross section of everyone. Where the rubber meets the road, the Bible tells us, is where the moral fabric of a society melts down and becomes oblivious to God. Where a society in General, rejects God and tries to become the focus.

Deu 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
Isa 26:2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
Pro 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

God "damms" a person because, they themselves are accountable to Him. When it appears that God has lifted His blessings from a whole nation, it is a manifestation of his judgment on a larger group of individuals who just happen to be from the same place.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

I'm not angry. I'd classify my beliefs as apatheistic. Don't know, don't care.

I'd classify yours as "don't know, just doing what I'm told."

YOu are willing to accept the invisible, the amoral, and the illogical on "faith." I'm not.

Thus, I'm not particularly quaking in my boots over here. I have a strong feeling I'll be worm food, and I'm okay with that.

To me, the brevity of life is what makes it so beautiful.

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I'll get nicer when you get smarter.

USGrant, for the third time, could you answer this question:

Will an exemplary person who happens to be nonChristian go to hell when they die?

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Man up.

Ray,
I agree with you. Fear is not a very good basis for ANY belief system.

catz,
I'd say that if God was as many so-called Christians describe Him, I'm not sure I'd want to believe in Him either. So, I see where you're coming from as well.
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All that being said, I feel that our choices like these shouldn't be about rewards and/or punishments. It should be about seeking truth in your life. I beleive there's an absolute truth upon which if you base your beliefs on it, you will not be shaken.

If there were no heaven or hell, I'd still choose to live my life the same way because I believe in following after truth.

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"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)