That is a perspective I can respect, even if I don't agree with it. In the end, the responsibility lies on the individual to seek out the truth as best they can and try to answer the unanswerable questions, realizing that we are still just guesstimating.

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Job 13:5 (New International Version)
If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom.

1st of all you are completely wrong. If Jesus did come to die for my sins I have nothing to worry about. He died already and if my sins are not forgiven then he failed. Based on what you "christians" say Jesus never fails.

2nd I believe it is Isaiah 45:7 that say "I made the light and created darkness, I made good and created evil, I the Lord your God did all these things." So based on your potter and clay theory from above I'm not complaining if he finds me evil because he made me.

3rd If God is Love and Love never fails and God doesn't intend for me to go to Hell because Jesus died for my sins then I am safe.

I appreciate the opportunity to answer that question.

When I read the word, "exemplary", I am assuming you mean in a moral sense. I mean, history is full of exemplary people, right?

By non-Christian, I am assuming that you mean someone who does not follow Jesus Christ and his teachings.

And "hell" is that place of "wailing and gnashing of teeth" we all hear about.

The short answer is, yes. And I will try and tell you why.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

So when we speak of God's economy, then we must address what his currency is, and not our own.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

In God's economy, there are rules. Those rules, if broken, cause us to fall short of what God, by his very nature, demands.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The punishment for sin is "death". But God offers a gift instead. A more perfect gift.

So let me ask you. What if heaven was more spectacular than you could imagine? What if what God was offering was well beyond your ability to grasp. What if His goodness, was more than sufficient to make up for the worst that you can imagine - being in his service? Wouldn't it be, rather, a gift to offer such a stark contrast in destiny? Wouldn't it be an obvious choice, then?

Heaven or hell. Hmmmm Let me think.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

Thanks for the direct answer.

That's all well and good, but you leave out two things:

1. What of people who have never even heard of Christianity?

2. The choice is not stark and clear, because God does not make it clear that Christianity is the true religion, as opposed to Islam or Judaism or Hinduism or any of the thousands of other "isms" out there, *all* of which *also* claim to be the one true religion, and have a holy book to prove it.

A person can, in all good faith, examine the various religions and conclude that Hinduism (for example) seems to be the one true religion. They're wrong, according to you; but why should they be punished for all eternity simply because God didn't make his intentions clear?

I simply cannot countenance a God who would send such people to eternal torment for such a thing.

Frankly, I have a hard time countenancing a God who would use the threat of eternal torment on basically good people, even if the choice *were* clear. A choice between endless love and a bullet to the head is the sort of choice I would expect from a mafia don, not a moral being.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

You are welcome.
That’s a great question. I asked myself that same question.
There are three types of people who have never heard of Christianity: the mentally ill; children (including infants); and those who are geographically never exposed to Jesus. In other words, you weren’t told, or you couldn’t understand even if you were told.
But what kind of system would that be if all the hearer had to do was avoid the message, and therefore be declared guiltless. Right? So there must be another dimension. I submit to you, that if Quasim Ismi deep in the Congo, looked up into heaven and asked for a sign, and God deemed his heart to be authentic (having faith), God would shoot down a Christian bush pilot, and cause Quasim to hear the Gospel. (And the pilot would be happy about it.) So my point is, how can a person argue with infallibility? If God made the sun, the moon, the earth and the stars, wouldn’t even the foolish things of God, be impossible to comprehend? If Quasim wants to believe, and approaches the thrown in faith, God will in now wise turn him away.
Are there any of us who are not told? My answer is, NO. For God caused everything in this world to point to him. From creation to the inner thoughts of men. God also created the capacity to understand enough to make an informed decision to abide in him or not.
Lastly, God is a perfect Judge. If you haven’t sinned, if your heart is clean, then you have nothing to worry about.

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2. The choice is not stark and clear, because God does not make it clear that Christianity is the true religion, as opposed to Islam or Judaism or Hinduism or any of the thousands of other "isms" out there, *all* of which *also* claim to be the one true religion, and have a holy book to prove it.

I would disagree. Lets start with Judaism. For a time, that was what God used to reach people. The Jews were to accept the stranger into their fold if he believed. Then came Jesus to fulfill what Judaism was telling us for all those years. A Messiah would come and take away the sins of the world. But Judaism stopped, not because it wasn’t true any longer, it was because it was fulfilled. It matured the relationship God has with mankind. Those who still practice it are like people running old software.
As for Hinduism and all the other *isms. The argument isn’t that there are so many, but rather, there is so many alike and only one that is unique. Show me what religion in the world, worships one whom other’s say, rose from the dead. (thus the all important question that refuses an answer, other than the obvious) Where is the body? If you need to find the one true faith, don’t compare all the ones that are the same, compare them, against the one that is completely unique. (Are you sure you read C.S. Lewis? He covers this point rather well.)

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A person can, in all good faith, examine the various religions and conclude that Hinduism (for example) seems to be the one true religion. They're wrong, according to you; but why should they be punished for all eternity simply because God didn't make his intentions clear?

I beg to differ. God’s intensions were so clear that these “religions” you speak of are still killing Christians today. Why? Because things are very clear. Stop selling your indulgences, your idols, your temple taxes and tithes. Stop it! Many people would loose their jobs, if Christianity thrived, because their livelihood is based on the religion. When ever there is money being changed hands, in large sums, I need to wonder who’s benefiting. If it isn’t the sick, the widows, orphans, and indigent. Then I wonder and ask myself, do you really need a Bentley to drive to work?
There comes a time where I have to admit I can’t see into the hearts of men. I must relinquish my right to second guess God, and start focusing on my own responsibility to him. If I go to hell because I am sure my perception of the imperceptible is correct, how tragic would that be? Rather, I trust what God has told me, and let Him worry about the details that are too great for me to consider. The Bible tells me that God is a perfect Judge, the Bible tells me there are people in hell, the Bible tells me that if I do a certain thing, I can avoid that fate. The Bible tells me that if I make that choice, then I can have fellowship with my creator. What a glory that is! Whoever is in hell, I am certain that there are things I can’t possibly know about them, but I know that God does. And for that, I am deferring to him.

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Frankly, I have a hard time countenancing a God who would use the threat of eternal torment on basically good people, even if the choice *were* clear. A choice between endless love and a bullet to the head is the sort of choice I would expect from a mafia don, not a moral being.

I am not going to soft soap God’s wrath. But he brings up some, and he brings down others. Not until a man knows his sin, can he really know forgiveness.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6

(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

(Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

Is God really the one who created evil? To answer the question we must first look at how the word for evil "rah" is used in the Bible, examine the context of the Isaiah 45:7 passage, and look at other passages on the same subject.
First of all, the Hebrew word for evil "rah" is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible, it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked", "bad", "hurt", "harm", "ill", "sorrow", "mischief", "displeased", "adversity", "affliction", "trouble", "calamity", "grievous", "misery", and "trouble." So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV;
Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters, and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,

"And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (Exodus 4:11).
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6).
From the above two verses we can see that the Lord is involved in calamity and problems in the earthly realm. Exodus 4:11 is speaking of human frailty and Amos 3:6 is speaking of woes in a city. It is not a moral evil that God brings, but calamity and distress upon people.
Of course, this raises other questions of why God would do such a thing, which I won't cover here. But, we can trust that whatever God does is just and is used for teaching, guiding, and disciplining His people.
Third, there are other verses that clearly show that God is pure and that He cannot approve of evil.

“The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He," (Deut. 32:4).
"Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor," (Hab. 1:13).
We can see that the Bible teaches that God is pure and does not approve of evil, that the word "rah" (evil) in Hebrew can mean many things, and that contextually, the verse is speaking calamity and distress. Therefore, God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster, of calamity.

(Well worded explanation. I could write non-better, so I violated my typical cut-and-paste prohibition and posted this response word for word from carm.org. A great source of information on topics such as this.)

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

Thanks for outlining many of the limitations to your god that make him less than credible.

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Job 13:5 (New International Version)
If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom.

So, what you have outlined is a rationalization for why a person can live as nearly perfect a life as possible, believing in what s/he thinks is a valid religion, only to be cast into hell upon death for having guessed wrong about their religion.

Believe that if you must. I simply cannot respect a being that would play by those rules.

So being "unique" is supposed to be enough of a clue to base one's eternal fate on? Now you're consigning people to hell for the "sin" of not paying close attention.

There is nothing moral about any of that.

Twasn't me claiming to have read him. The only C.S. Lewis I've read is the Narnia series and his space trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, etc.).

That has nothing to do with "God's intentions" and everything to do with people not liking any group that upsets the apple cart -- or simply believes something different from themselves. It's not like Christians have always been above repressing other religions.

And that's fine. You can believe anything you like as long as you apply it only to yourself. But I don't see how you can be surprised that people might find the God you've described in this thread to be rather distasteful and unworthy of praise.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

I understand your complaint. Believe me, I do... In human terms, we can't imagine the weight of one sin against such a sentence. After all, how can we deplore water-boarding for suspects of terrorism, and eternal hell for eating the wrong fruit or guessing wrong on the wheel of religion?

In my estimation, this discussion is only valid, if we knew all the rules and why they were enforced in such a manner. But we don't. None of us do. What we know is what we are given to know, by the rule maker.

My question is this: Are you going to spend an eternity in Hell on principle? And does that principle really serve you if the inventor of that principle is sending you there? Will you curse your torments thinking you are innocent? Will you shake your fist at the God of the Universe, the creator of all that there is, saying, "I am Innocent! I don't deserve to be here!" when he who sees all, and everything that you have ever done, saw fit to send you there?

What if you are being deceived by the very one who wishes as much company as possible, when his sentence is carried out? What if you are arguing from a perspective which you have not considered the possibility of God, at all, and you are just saying these things to be contrary?

I am not asking you to believe something out of fear, unless fear is the only way you will consider the facts. Fear keeps me away from the edge of the cliff. Fear keeps me out of certain sections of town. Fear keeps me healthy and my family healthy. Fear isn't a tool that is out-of-bounds, if it keeps you from certain destruction. If my kids do what I tell them to do, because they fear me, then I am thrilled! Why am I thrilled? Because playing out in the street is dangerous.

My question to you is this: If the rule maker is the ultimate authority, and he is real, are you really being truthful if you say, "Screw Him if this is His policy!" I don't think you like paying taxes, you are actually forced to pay taxes, but if the thing that you hate, suddenly calls you up to defend her against all enemies foreign and domestic, will you point to your W-2 and declare, "I refuse!", just because you don't like taxes?

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

A man and his son is nothing like the relationship between God and man; Both human father and human son are humans, God is not. It is more like a man creating a race of intelligent ants, and then setting forth laws for their own good, and coming to the unhappy conclusion that many of those ants wont obey the law without some sort of penalty, which he must then also set forth.

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"Those who turn swords into plowshares will do the plowing for those who do not" - Anon

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded emotional and mental development" - Sigmund Freud