We are not praying to them as worship. We as the saints to intercede for us before God and use the saints as examples of how we should live our lives

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Personally I think Jesus is probably the most misunderstood person in world history, and primarily misunderstood by Christians. Jesus was obviously a great Zen master that spoke in koans and had a sense of humor about life. Its sad that so many people and especially Christians don't get him.

When Jesus said, "I and the father are one", it is obvious if you understand Zen and the other words of Jesus regarding whether he was the messiah that he meant we are all sons of God. We are all part of God. In the end, he made it quite clear it didn't matter at all if people thought he was the messiah or not.

He pretty much gave people the hint when he told his disciples, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand"

In other words, if he spoke plainly, no one would believe him. He said the same thing about whether he was the messiah when asked saying, "If I tell you, you will not believe; and if I ask you, you will not answer."

The man brought Zen to the ME in a very bold, courageous, exciting, and FUN way. What he taught is extremely empowering and liberating. The kingdom of God is HERE and NOW, not some unachievable dream to happen after death, IF you know how to look at life.

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Qur'an:8:39 Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
Qur'an:8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Qur'an 8:12 I will terrorize the unbelievers...Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.
Qur'an 9:5 Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

why the saints intercede ?? can't we worship our God directly , wouldn't he hear and reply of us without partners !!!!
- Jesus and others prophets were just a way helping us to know how to worship our God , not to worship them
we can't worship humains

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Toujours tu as ton façon

No Catholic is forcing anybody to pray to the saints. The catholic church just allows people to pray how they feel is best. If some people feel the need to pray to the saints to be closer to God, then so be it.

Furthermore, I believe that Jesus is the Son of Man. He is God incarnate. So he is full God and full man.

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By praying to saints, you are praying to something other than God, which is a false idol.

Saints are nothing more than people who lived and died for their faith. Choosing a saint to follow in the footsteps of is one thing, such as Mother Theresa, St Francis of Assisi, etc., and can lead to one living a life for the betterment of man and God.

PRAYING to a saint like they are holy is the equivalent of praying to a demigod.

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I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.

There are some that only employ words for the purpose of disguising their thoughts.

Here's where your point falls to pieces, catholics pray to saints only so that the saints will pray to God. If you understand that you pray to Mary so that she will pray to God, and that everything she has done is only possible because of God, you aren't worshiping a demigod.

When a loved one is injured, don't you ask for your relatives and friend's prayers? Its the same thing when we pray to the saints. We aren't saying "Oh Great Mary, Come Down and Answer my Prayers" we are saying "Mary please pray for us".

Again, you could argue that it goes against the literal sense of the scripture. But if you want to follow scripture literally then getting a haircut or shaving your beard is a sin. (you would also be expected to believe that the world was made in 7 days and that evolution is wrong)

When Jesus was presented with a woman who had been found to have committed adultery, he had quite the predicament. A literal interpretation of the law, not unlike what you are presenting, prescribed stoning the woman to death for her sin. That of course would be in conflict to Jesus's own teachings which centered around forgiveness and unconditional love. Following the spirit of the law, instead of the letter, is represented by Jesus's response "Let the first among you who has no sin cast the first stone".

So if you wish to say that Christans are doomed to hell if Jesus turns out to not be God, okay. However, I have nothing to be worried about because if God holds us to a literal interpretation of scripture at judgement we are all screwed anyway.

Are you familiar with 'Dispensation'?



None of which has anything to do with the question I have asked.



I never said that.



I see you aren't familiar with Scripture or Dispensationalism.

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“Race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now.” --Barack Obama

Wrong, you rejected my original answer because it doesn't fit into a literal interpretation of scripture. That story was an example of how following scripture literally doesn't work.

Thats true, and I never said you said that. I said "If you wish to say" not, "you said".

This is great, its like a game of Password. Keep going and I'll interrupt when I know what the %#@& you are talking about.

No, I rejected it because it was off topic.



If you are not familiar with 'Dispensation', there is no need to continue this conversation [at this level].


And honestly, I'm not here to teach Christian theology. If you wanna learn about the Bible, go to church.

If you want to discuss theology, I suggest: Theologyonline.com

Tell them BillyBob sent ya....

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“Race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now.” --Barack Obama