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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2008, 02:16 PM
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Well, that's what's wrong with everything in the world. The world needs good teachers.
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Originally Posted by votetheoneyouhatetheleast View Post
I'm an independent for one thing not a liberal. Just because I think Bush is an incompetent leader doesn't make me liberal, doesn't even exclude me from being republican, I choose to weigh up his actions and determine my own opinion, over blind party loyalty.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2008, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tarheeler View Post
re·li·gion: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
(Merriam-Webster)
As in my post, I compared it to fanatical religion. Both are extreme. When you to look to science to provide all the answers, you have taken a leap of faith. Priests and symbols are not required.
Science is not a "system of beliefs". It is a system whereby reliable knowledge about out world is obtained.
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In order to simply explain more that the previous one, the previous one would have to still be valid.
No. In was only "valid" in the sense that it explained certain things or observations made in our world. It was a model which explained and predicted things to within a certain degree of accuracy.
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In the example of the earth, the geocentric model and the Ptolemaic model were completely scraped for the Copernican model.
Those models accorded with observations fairly well. Just not as well as the Copernican model. This model explained more and was simpler to boot.
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At one time, the scientific community believed extinction didn't happen and the sound barrier could not be broken. I'd call that disproved.
Which scientific theory predicted that extinctions didn't occur? Could you enlighten me? As to the sound barrier, my understanding is that theory current at the time broke down at the point of something moving faster than sound.
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Yes, the ancient Greeks did; and yet the scientists of the world in the 6th century still thought it was flat. Some held on to it until the middle ages. Science was invented much earlier, as you said yourself, the ancient Greeks used it. Only they called it natural philosophy.
There were no scientists in the 6th century.

The ancient Greeks did much to further our knowledge, not least in the area of mathematics. The problem, seen from hindsight, is that they never did much experimentation to test theories regarding the physical world. They unfortunately had a principle saying that truths about the world could be achieved just through the application of logic. If only they had gone that one step further and incorporated "testing of theories" as part of their endevours, we might be having this discussion on a planet in the Alpha Centauri system.
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How many theories have been presented, widely accepted and then replaced with, sometimes radically, different ideas?
Many. Such is the nature of science and of knowledge, It is an incremental process. The more you know, the more can know.

You cannot expect a caveman to ponder on and experiment with the quantum nature of stuff.
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I understand it quite well.
I fail to see how you could given your replies here.
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And some people find that religion makes it easier to deal with.
I think we are here at the core. Some people wish to be cuddled and others want to know the truth.
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Look, I'm not debunking science. But new technologies provides tremendous advances in science, and because of this what we know is constantly changing. People finding this unsettling is nothing new. "Cogito ergo sum" (I think, therefore I am) came from Descartes internal battle with this same issue.
Some people find an unchanging God much more comfortable.
Some people find a teddy bear comfortable. That doesn't make the universe a "teddy bear" kind of universe.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2008, 02:54 PM
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Let me ask you a question DanishDynamite. Why did you post this thread? What did you want to get from it?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by votetheoneyouhatetheleast View Post
I'm an independent for one thing not a liberal. Just because I think Bush is an incompetent leader doesn't make me liberal, doesn't even exclude me from being republican, I choose to weigh up his actions and determine my own opinion, over blind party loyalty.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2008, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Rotaerk View Post
It is true. When you look to anything to provide all the answers, you have taken a leap of faith, i.e. ignored logic. Science is not the source of all truth. Science only exists within the context of philosophy, from which it gains its value. It never has been a source of truth, only facts (observable phenomena) and explanations. Even facts aren't necessarily true, unless preceded with "I have observed that...". In this case, they are true, but only to the observer. Sharing facts with others then adds to the complexity of the claim: "I observed him claiming that he observed that...".
I don't know what you mean by "truth" above. And no one I know looks to science for all the answers. Just answers regarding how the physical world works. And that's enough for me.
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Science is the recognition that observations tend to be reliably consistent,...
No. That is not a recognition of science, that is in fact the axiom of the scientific method.
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... and that certain people's claims also tend to be consistent (these are called "trustworthy"... and perhaps "sane"). It follows that one can model these observed patterns and make predictions. If any predictions turn out incorrect, that means the model of the patterns was not complete, and thus should be revised. Hence, the scientific method, which is itself only a formalization of the concept of science.
No, science doesn't care if certain people's observations seem consistent. It cares whether many independent observers doing the same experiment get similar results.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2008, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by B-rett View Post
No one can answer this question, it is loaded.

But to answer it, I do believe in God and I am a practicing Catholic. For proof, I point you to Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theologica
What is that?
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2008, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by lgm1213 View Post
I totally think its possible to believe in "sky daddies" and be considered sane. The more and more we learn about the universe and everything in it, the more we realize that we don't know anything. For example, take the big bang theory. We are supposed to believe according to the big bang, that a bunch of dust and gas were densely packed into a single point and one day it all started to expand outward randomly.
No, that is not what the Big Bang says. It says (simplified) that the Universe was at one point located in just one point and that it then expanded from this point and in fact continues expanding. See Big Bang for further info.
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This notion of accepting theories and science in general is no more sane than accepting the concept of a God or multiple deities. Science can validate the belief in a God and can also deny the existence of said presence.
For the love of whather god you currently believe in, please read any introductory book on science.
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But in the end it comes to whether or not you want to reduce existence to nothingness and random probability or you you can say that something else is the driving force behind the world and universe around us.
No. Science determines how the Universe we live in works, its parameters, etc. The fact that the Universe as such doesn't "care" about your life or any life or any non-life, but just does as it does, is just a fact. It doesn't demean the Universe or Science or anything, it is just a fact to know.
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Old 04-15-2008, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by catzmeow View Post
not to me, no, but I understand why it has credibility to others. It is comforting to believe that there is someone out there watching out for you. It is comforting to believe that we don't just end.

I don't believe it, but sometimes it would be comforting to.
I think this addresses the core of the issue.
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Old 04-15-2008, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by votetheoneyouhatetheleast View Post
Let me ask you a question DanishDynamite. Why did you post this thread? What did you want to get from it?
Already answered.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2008, 03:17 PM
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Show me please. And drop the arrogant s**t I'm not your enemy.
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"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." - Oscar Wilde

"Nothing doth more hurt in a state than that cunning men pass for wise." - Sir Francis Bacon

Quote:
Originally Posted by votetheoneyouhatetheleast View Post
I'm an independent for one thing not a liberal. Just because I think Bush is an incompetent leader doesn't make me liberal, doesn't even exclude me from being republican, I choose to weigh up his actions and determine my own opinion, over blind party loyalty.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2008, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by votetheoneyouhatetheleast View Post
Show me please. And drop the arrogant s**t I'm not your enemy.
Sorry if I came across as arrogant.

As to what you would like me to show you, I presume you mean my reasons for posting this thread?

I answered this earlier (2:13 my time) where I said:

"The reason I made this thread was the same reason anyone here makes a thread. It was to have a discussion on the subject. If anyone's view is affected or someone learns something they didn't know, that's a bonus."
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