Originally Posted by Rotaerk

First of all, I didn't ask for a scientific way to prove the existence of God: There is none, since God is unobservable. I asked for a logical argument/proof/deduction that explains "I exist, therefore God exists". Experience is never justification in itself, although sometimes it leads to revelations, such as "Aha! So that is the logical argument for God's existence!" But you seem not to have one. It seems you just felt like believing in God due to some emotional experience, and on a whim, did so.

Logic is ultimately just organized thought. Its scope of usage goes beyond merely understanding the world but also into the realm of philosophical questions (such as the existence of god, the nature of consciousness, etc). To be illogical is to be unthinking, driven by emotion and instinct.

Be careful not to lump everything non-religious together. Science, logic, math... they're not one and the same.



Actually, religion is a topic of study in science. Religion is an observable phenomenon and as such, science can model it. The claims of religions, on the other hand, are either A) supported by science, B) shown to be inconsistent with observations, or C) deemed out of the scope of science.

In the case of A, there aren't any issues. In the case of B, this is where science and religion clashes the most: Religious people tend to prefer the facts of their faith over the facts of the senses, whereas scientists always favor the observed facts over current beliefs. In the case of C, if you want science to find you answers, give up: It can't. Science will never prove that God exists, unless he makes himself observable.

Originally Posted by Herkdriver

Euler's formula

e^(pi * i) + 1 = 0

Human knowledge adds up to nothing.

Originally Posted by Rotaerk

Heh. I wouldn't say it adds up to nothing. There are a lot of things we know about the world, and thus can use to manipulate the world. A more precise thing to say would be that human knowledge is very limited and that a lot of important questions are unanswerable.

Originally Posted by Herkdriver

CERN is about to find the Higgs-Boson or "God" particle which gives mass to other particles. Some theorists say it could bring to light entirely new types of strong interactions, and others believe research will reveal a new fundamental physical symmetry called "supersymmetry."

hmmmmmmmmm

Seems like design to me, but what the heck do I know.

Originally Posted by Rotaerk

Heh. I wouldn't say it adds up to nothing. There are a lot of things we know about the world, and thus can use to manipulate the world. A more precise thing to say would be that human knowledge is very limited and that a lot of important questions are unanswerable.

Originally Posted by Herkdriver

All the more reason we are responsible for our actions my friend Rotarek.

I think God does reveal Himself, at least His work. He acknoweledges, I beliive, that despite our relatively large brains and self-awareness, we need a nudge every now and then.

He reveals Himself in the complexity of his Creations.

We are exploring the human genome and the small differences in it that can separate us from our primate relatives. A protein here, a protein there...yet we are not chimps, our species put a Man on the moon, we've sent an object outside of our Solar System. We've conquered rivers with Dams, built sky scrapers, we've conquered the air and the sea with our intelligence.

A chimp uses a stick to catch termites...

Evolution and God are not incompatible.

Science and God are not incompatible.

On the contrary, every new discovery, every new understanding strengthens my Faith. Maybe God has created an infinite number of these Universes, maybe he has Children of His own in all of them...I don't know...but I do not question a God capable of Creation. His work is enough for me to know I am a believer.

Originally Posted by Perham

I think God made himself unprovable by purpose, to distinguish between those who can believe him and those who can't overcome their own pride and see the obvious truth.

I still think that logic is what human mind is based on, not a fact that exists out of human world. just like zeros and ones for a computer.

Originally Posted by Herkdriver

All the more reason we are responsible for our actions my friend Rotarek.

I think God does reveal Himself, at least His work. He acknoweledges, I beliive, that despite our relatively large brains and self-awareness, we need a nudge every now and then.

He reveals Himself in the complexity of his Creations.

We are exploring the human genome and the small differences in it that can separate us from our primate relatives. A protein here, a protein there...yet we are not chimps, our species put a Man on the moon, we've sent an object outside of our Solar System. We've conquered rivers with Dams, built sky scrapers, we've conquered the air and the sea with our intelligence.

A chimp uses a stick to catch termites...

Originally Posted by Herkdriver

Evolution and God are not incompatible.

Science and God are not incompatible.

Originally Posted by Herkdriver

On the contrary, every new discovery, every new understanding strengthens my Faith. Maybe God has created an infinite number of these Universes, maybe he has Children of His own in all of them...I don't know...but I do not question a God capable of Creation. His work is enough for me to know I am a believer.

Originally Posted by Rotaerk

The world is definitely complex. However this is not a revelation of God. In order for someone to reveal themselves, they need to do something which can be directly traced back to them.

If I were to dig a hole in the ground, anyone who didn't see me actually dig it would have no clue that I was the one who did it. By digging the hole, I have not revealed myself. There are many other possible causes of the hole being there. If I were to stand on the hole and shout "I DUG THIS!", that would be a revelation.

The complexity of the world certainly could be the result of a designer, but its mere existence is not a revelation of said designer. It only indicates that somehow, it came to be that way. There are many possible explanations, intelligent design being only one of them.



Correct, they are not incompatible, which is why I never mention science or evolution when debating the existence of God.




As I've indicated above, this is backwards reasoning. In terms of logic, let's let C be "The world is complex" and GE be "God exists".

What you seem to do is notice that C is true, get baffled by the complexity and jump to the nearest conclusion: that it must have been made by someone more intelligent than you, and deduce that GE is true. Bafflement is not a valid proof that C -> GE.

Now when you see more examples of C being true, they inspire the same bafflement and amazement, thus causing you to erroneously deduce the same thing. This is not how evidence works: Evidence is not that which makes you feel better about your beliefs.