Originally Posted by JeffLV

I respect this statement. It's pretty similar to the quote and philosophy I've mentioned before:

There is more than one way to climb to the top of a mountain. I don't think there is just one way or one right religion. There are elements of truth to be found in all of them, and I believe a real understanding comes from the study of all major religions, philosophy and spirituality. Most of all it comes from a curious and open mind. Even one that adheres to a single religion like Islam or Christianity should have an open might about its interpretation. As you said, these books were written hundreds and hundreds of years ago, they must be understood in translation and in historical context.

Originally Posted by Ixtellor

And yet you keep referring to Aquinas and Lewis, as evidence.
I read CS Lewis many years ago and was thourougly "underwhelmed"

I am in the process of reading Thomas Aquinis (sp?) now. So far I am at the point where he is trying to convice us that God is self evident.



1) So you seem to indicate you believe in the conservation of mass or the 2nd law of thermodynamis. Yet, you will probably claim that God created mass, thus indicating you DON'T believe in that as a strict law.

2) Human understanding of math doesn't work or fully explain the Big Bang. It is still under study. The new super collider might give us further information.

3) There are several hypothesis about what happened before the "Big Bang".

4) Since time did not exist until the Big Bang (see Einstein) There is no beginning/end/middle prior to the Big Bang. So you can't say "what happened before", because there was no before, Time did not exist.

5) Lets look at the various hypothesis of the "origin" and the Universe. In one corner we shall place Relgion, in the other we shall put Science.
In your educated opinion, which corner has done a more accurate, and better theories of our universe?
(Hint: Do you still think Zeus's parents created the universe?)

You guys keep saying, there is only one god, and all religions lead to the same path. Does this hold true for Zeus worship?



Correct. There is actually no such thing as proof, there is ONLY Theory.


Nothing in existance can be proven. You can only disprove or provide supporting evidence.

God can not be disproven, because you just have to create an ad hoc explanation.
In addition, it would be impossible to disprove the existance of something that is "BEYOND human comprehension, space/time, and the laws of nature!!"



I challenge you to PROVE to me in Mathematical terms or any other terms, that an Invisible, all powerful bunny named Greg, who lives in San Francisco, whose power and existance is beyond the laws of nature, and whose only interest is directing/coercing Human's into eating more chocolate, does NOT exist.
(Hint: You can't disprove any fairy tale, or wacked out thing that I can think up, as long as I add - it is beyond the laws of nature/human comprehension!!"

Your challenge was no different than mine.

More importantly... I am going to make this big so you totally get it.

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE PERSON MAKING THE CLAIM, NOT THE SKEPTIC.

Since we are talking about SCIENCE, this is how it works. You make claim - YOU prove it.

If I claim the Thanksgiving Day Llama, cries tears of solid gold. The onus would be on ME to prove my claim, never on you to disprove it.

Ixtellor

P.S. Kneel before Vishnu or suffer eternal Hell Fire!

Originally Posted by Ixtellor

Since we are talking about SCIENCE, this is how it works. You make claim - YOU prove it.

Originally Posted by stekim

Obviously. The fact is, there are an infinite number of things that do not exist, from pink snorklewackers to purple unicorns to George Bush's IQ. Because the list of things that do not exist is infinite, the only logical default position is that "A" does not exist until ample evidence is supplied to suggest "A" does indeed exist. If you claim to have a car that runs on french fries and waffles, there is absolutely no burden on me to prove you do not. It is entirely up to you, the person making the affirmative claim, to prove you have such a car. If you don't offer any evidence of said car, I can only conclude it does not exist. But I am certainly open to changing my mind.

As an atheist I am not stating "God does not exist". What I am stating is "To date I have seen no evidence to suggest the existence of a God." Same applies for your french fry and waffle car. I don't know for a fact it doesn't exist. I just haven't seen any evidence it does, so I don't believe it exists.

Originally Posted by Herkdriver

I was 36 when my Mother died. My Dad had already passed away. I was for all intents and purposes an orphan. I was deployed to Kyrgyzstan as part of Operation Enduring Freedom which is the war in Afghanistan. I visited an orphanage at Charikar village near Bagram Airfield. I had a few boxes of crayons, the small 8 pack kind and I gave these out to some of the kids. A girl of probably 7 or 8 years with very bright sky blue eyes gave me a hug for this. You would think I'd given her the World.

She had nothing in this World. No parents. An extremely uncertain future in a war torn village.

I believe God exists in moments like that. Two orphans in the World, with diametrically different lives simply found a moment of solace.

or maybe you all are right. There's no God, there's no Heaven...suffering means nothing.

It's all pointless.

I choose hope, I choose God.

Originally Posted by Ixtellor

Well there are many very religious people with all kinds of degrees and study, and millions of followers who would disagree with you.
I would wager several billion people believe that there religion is the one true religion, and any doubt or acceptance of other religions would lead to... um... hell.
Maybe you have heard of the Southern Babtists? There is only one way to heaven according to them. I imagine that wahabbism teaches the same thing.


Ixtellor

P.S. I personally agree with you, but then I am agnostic, meaning I am reasonable.

Originally Posted by Herkdriver

One of the young students who was killed at Columbine high school in Colorado several years back was approached by one of the gun wielding lunatics and asked "does anyone here believe in Christ?" This was in the school library. She answered yes. She was shot for her trouble.

Originally Posted by raytri

Actually, this is considered an urban myth now. There was an exchange similar to the above, but the student in question wasn't shot.



Yes, it was.

I agree that evil exists. I also agree that much evil comes from being absolutely certain of one's rectitude.



Unless you believe Harris and Klebold were born evil, it makes sense to consider the contributing factors to evil. It doesn't excuse the actions, but it makes for more rational efforts to reduce the amount of evil in the world.



I sympathize. I think it's why most people, myself included, hope there is some sort of celestial scorekeeper who rewards the good and punishes the guilty.

I simply cannot *believe* in such a scorekeeper. I can merely hope.

That said, life is not amoral. There are rewards and punishments aplenty in this world, and most of them tend to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. One does not need cosmic justice in order to find plenty of incentives to act honestly and well.