Sorry; came late to the thread. Didn't mean to pile on!

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Man up.

I don't sit on the fence. I'm in the spiritual game, euphemistically speaking, I expect to get hit once in a while.

There is plenty of negativity and discouragement in this World, on that you can be assured.

I got through the relevant passages of Summa Theologica

Here is Thomas's argument on proof that god exists.(he gives 5,)
1) Things can not go into motion without something else promting them. Since something had to START the first motion, that something was God.

My reply:
He is basically stating a true law of physics.
But instead of searching for what began it all, he gives up and says "therefor GOD"
I think the "correct" answer is: I don't know what started the big bang, I will do more research until I do. It is not therefore God.

2) Because there is no effect without cause, if you follow all the effects and their causes back and back and back, There had to be a first cause. This cause = god.

Same argument as above.

I can't explain big bang therefore God, when simply stating "I do not yet know" is more efficient and logical.

3) If at one point nothing existed, it would be impossible to start existing. So whatever started existance = god.

Same argument as previous two.

4) There are various degrees of objects/genus. One person is level X good, and someone else is X + 1 good, and further still someone is X + 2 good, etc etc. When you get to the last person, the MOST good person.... That is God. God is the MOST god, MOST powerful, Most everthing positive.

Then he argues that paraphrasing closesly "The maximum of a thing "genus" IS the cause of all in that "genus"

He uses fire as his example.
Because, according to thomas, Fire is the maximum of heat, Fire is the creator of all heat.
So for him, because God is the maximum of Good, then God created all things that are Good.

If your knowledge were limited this would be true.

What he didn't know and what we do know today are other forms of heat. Radiation, rapid movement of atoms, convection, nuclear, etc.

5) Things that lack in intelligence are acting for an end. AND, things that lack intelligence can NOT move towards an end without intelligence.

He uses the example of an arrow. An arrow can not "act for an end" being shot into a target, without an intelligent being making it so.

He concludes, therefore that Some intelligent being must direct nature to an end.

This is the worst of the arguments IMHO.
Does a volcano act intelligently when it spues rock that later comes to rest on the surface?

You can probably think of many things happening through the result of physics alone.

There is no reason to skip over quantom mechanics which explain the exact same phenom, and go right to God. You can just stop at Quantom mechanics.


Which portions for the existance of god, or does God have a physical body, did you find compelling Herk?

I found none of the "proofs" to the existance of God compelling at all. I don't believe I am being hard headed.

Is it hard headed to say, further reserach is needed to explain the Big Bang and what started it?
It seems to me the irrational, and stubborn approach is "I can't explain Big Bang, therefore God exists and made it happen"

Ixtellor

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George W. Bush "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building"

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

I guess what I am looking for is: I have no logical reason to believe what I believe, it is probably irrational, yet I choose to believe it anyway. I also concede that I might be totally wrong.

Any mix or match of that.



Correct, there is no evidence.

What a coincedence, so am I.

The big question... WHY?

A BIGGER why??? Why reject Zeus or Vishnu?
What is it about Zeus and Vishnu that you find NOT compelling?

Jesus, as written about in the bible is AWSOME. If only more Christians tried to live like Jesus and left their "God kills (*)(*)(*)(*) Dead" signs at home.
(I realize this is an exception, and not the rule. But if you propose gay marriage, thousands of Christans show up to condemn it as an abomination)

That is very hard to define. Would you concede that the definition of "Good" changes?

Again, this definition changes. So I don't know what to make of your statement.

I call him Clark Kent. (AKA superman)

Smart.

Thats as true a statment as you can make. (see Richard Rorty)

We can record observations, and then test to see if they are predictible and repeatable.
As long as gravity is predictable and repeatable, it will remain "true" until such time as it is not "true".

Or that Zeus throws lightning bolts, or that Vishnu loves you more than Jesus ever did.


WHY????

No one should have any problem with what you believe, as long as you don't harm others with it, or base your harming of others on it.
(see Hitler, he had beliefs as well)

We probably have more in common that that. I like to eat food, do you?

Yes, but did you just jump at the first religion you encountered, or did you give any others a go?
I highly recommend Zeus worship.

You didn't find Marx's take on "economics explains everything" fascinating?

Did you at least find his account of history interesting?

The last book you recommended "summa theologica" was lazy.
Everything I can't explain = god.
That is the summary.

Maybe you could summarize your new recommendation.


Ixtellor

P.S. I don't have any negative feelings about you, I am just a curious person.

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George W. Bush "I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called nation-building"

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

I'm not seeking and demanding proof to validate my faith.

you are.

I am part of the Universe, I have intelligence (some my argument I don't, but anyway), therefore I deduce a Universe capable of developing sentient beings also posseses intelligence.

Simple deductive logic.

Not proof necessarily.

I don't demand proof.

It's Faith for a reason.

I don't mean to sound flippant regarding your opinion of Aquinas' Summa Theologica.

It's a five volume work. It deals with Catholic Dogma.

You profess no faith or belief.

I'm Catholic. For no other reason I appreciate Aquinas' intellectual approach to this topic.

Why is the burden of proof on me to prove anything?

I'm stating what I believe. I'm Roman Catholic, or more broadly I am Christian.
Both philosophically and spiritually.

I'm confused why I need to prove anything exactly?

or what I'm trying to prove?

As I say logic dictates that all biological life has a beginning and an end. Birth and Death.
Logic dictates that unless something can be "proved" (whatever that means) than it doesn't exist. Therefore logically again, there is no after-death...it's nothingness.

So as I say this is where your logic leads you...to nothingness...so all the stuff that comprises your life, the stuff you've read the people who love you and everything in it.

Eventually ends in nothing.

that's where Logic will take you.

You seem to be kind of closed to the whole concept of God.

I don't know what else to tell you.

Eventually my friend your life will end as will mine.

This conversation, this debate will have had no purpose and no meaning....
You've offered up no belief system or philosophy that I can challenge or compare...You just attack mine.

Seems a rather juvenile way to approach an honest debate or conversation.

IMO, people don't need a cause to believe. that's the magic of believing. those people with pure logical minds will be replaced by robots someday!

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I crave therefore I am and that is all I ever feel
I hoped you'd understand, One love, One pain, One enemy
I toast to misery, as I dig into the devil's bone
And for eternity the pain became me
Unholy me alone...

Faith is a gift Perham.

Some folks want a 900 foot God from Outer Space to knock on their door and say Hello.

The miracle of life is enough for me.

I dont think I am... I definitly believe there is god, I just like to wage war against organized religon.

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This Machine Kills Fascists!

Resistance to Tyranny is Obedience to God

Remember the Children of Sderot