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Old 05-14-2008, 02:44 PM
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Default Arguements for or against God

I'd like to make a list of everyone's arguements for or against the existance of God. There obviously isn't physical evidence one way or the other, but we can make logical arguements. I'll start off with an ontolgoical one that I haven't seen before, so I'm going to claim I invented it. Feel free to debate it or add your own arguement.

1. God, by definition, exists/existed before/outside of the universe. In other words, the universe is not required for his existance.

2. The universe is, by the definition used in this arguement, all matter, energy, and space that exists. If something has mass, energy, or a unique location, it is part of the universe.

3. Therefore God, not a part of the universe, has no mass, energy, or a unique location. Without these, it is impossible to exist or interact with the universe in a meaningful way. Therefore, God doesn't exist.
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:38 PM
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I will take the option of the agnostic by pointing out that you cannot prove absolutely one side or the other, and any claim towards being completely right is an ideological argument and thus is inherently flawed.
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Old 05-14-2008, 07:18 PM
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To me, the biggest arguement for God in terms of raw facts is some of the near-death experiences. My friend for example died and wandered around the hospital in a spirit form. He was able to see, hear, observe, and remember things though his body lie on a table hundreds of feet away. When the doctors revived him, he was able to describe what he did and where he went. The things he knew were impossible to know unless he really did leave his body. For example, he knew who was waiting for him in the waiting room and who was not. He knew what patient was several doors down and what the conversation with the nurse was.

This doesn't prove the existence of God but it does prove, to him at least, that there is something besides this physical body that makes us who we are.

Unfortunately these things can't be reproduced in a controlled environment so scientists just ignore them for the most part, and they do little to help others who didn't actually have the event happen to them. But since I know him, and he's an atheist with a Ph.D. not some religious nuthead, it's pretty convincing to me.
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by masterproctor View Post
I will take the option of the agnostic by pointing out that you cannot prove absolutely one side or the other, and any claim towards being completely right is an ideological argument and thus is inherently flawed.
By your logic no one can be right. If someone can substantiate their claim with a solid proof, it doesn't matter how sure of themselves they are.
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozek View Post
To me, the biggest arguement for God in terms of raw facts is some of the near-death experiences. My friend for example died and wandered around the hospital in a spirit form. He was able to see, hear, observe, and remember things though his body lie on a table hundreds of feet away. When the doctors revived him, he was able to describe what he did and where he went. The things he knew were impossible to know unless he really did leave his body. For example, he knew who was waiting for him in the waiting room and who was not. He knew what patient was several doors down and what the conversation with the nurse was.

This doesn't prove the existence of God but it does prove, to him at least, that there is something besides this physical body that makes us who we are.

Unfortunately these things can't be reproduced in a controlled environment so scientists just ignore them for the most part, and they do little to help others who didn't actually have the event happen to them. But since I know him, and he's an atheist with a Ph.D. not some religious nuthead, it's pretty convincing to me.
Even assuming out of body experiences like what you described are completely real, it's not an argument for God. If it's proven that near death experiences can give someone a form of clairvoyance, that just means that we have a metaphysical aspect, not that there is some all-powerful being somewhere.
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Okamifujutsu View Post
By your logic no one can be right. If someone can substantiate their claim with a solid proof, it doesn't matter how sure of themselves they are.
By your logic, your lack of an ability to prove makes you right. So until you can prove to me that God doesn't exist without something other than extended sentences that sound like deep thought while you smoked dope, you are wrong.
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:25 PM
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By your logic, your lack of an ability to prove makes you right. So until you can prove to me that God doesn't exist without something other than extended sentences that sound like deep thought while you smoked dope, you are wrong.
Your first sentence makes no sense. All I was saying was that if your argument is sound, you're right. Which is the definition of a sound argument. How can you twist that to mean I'm right be default? And then you go on to claim that you're right by default. I'm sure when you thought that to yourself it made sense, but you need to express yourself more clearly.
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Okamifujutsu View Post
Your first sentence makes no sense. All I was saying was that if your argument is sound, you're right. Which is the definition of a sound argument. How can you twist that to mean I'm right be default? And then you go on to claim that you're right by default. I'm sure when you thought that to yourself it made sense, but you need to express yourself more clearly.
It is pretty clear, I am right because you can't prove that I am wrong. Until you can prove that there is no God, you are wrong. I bet if you pray to God about it, He will reveal to you that I speak the truth.
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozek View Post
To me, the biggest arguement for God in terms of raw facts is some of the near-death experiences. My friend for example died and wandered around the hospital in a spirit form. He was able to see, hear, observe, and remember things though his body lie on a table hundreds of feet away. When the doctors revived him, he was able to describe what he did and where he went. The things he knew were impossible to know unless he really did leave his body. For example, he knew who was waiting for him in the waiting room and who was not. He knew what patient was several doors down and what the conversation with the nurse was.

This doesn't prove the existence of God but it does prove, to him at least, that there is something besides this physical body that makes us who we are.

Unfortunately these things can't be reproduced in a controlled environment so scientists just ignore them for the most part, and they do little to help others who didn't actually have the event happen to them. But since I know him, and he's an atheist with a Ph.D. not some religious nuthead, it's pretty convincing to me.
Tell him not get near death again to have the experience, Just smoke some "skunk"
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MasTequila View Post
It is pretty clear, I am right because you can't prove that I am wrong. Until you can prove that there is no God, you are wrong. I bet if you pray to God about it, He will reveal to you that I speak the truth.
We're in the same boat, then. Until you can prove there is a God, you're wrong too. Also, I bet if you listen to the voice in your refridgerator, it'll tell you there is no God.
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