Origins of Religion

WafflesFTW · #1 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 06:11 PM

Ever since the start of human society and intelligence, religion has existed to explain the unknown. As time passed on, and as more became known, religions started dying off. The Greeks/Romans had a god for almost everything. Because they didn't understand how almost everything worked. Thus, ego, the need to know everything, created these gods. And as these things became discovered, religion died off. Even today, this phenomenon is occurring. We look at the past and go "how could those idiots even have thought that" but that is what we are doing right now. We don't know the origin of life, its purpose, the end, and we, and our ego, make up stuff in order for us to "know". The simple geography of religion is enough proof for this. Religions all have a geographic origin where individuals made this stuff up. Then it spreads, and what you have now is all of that made up. So why believe? Even most religious, even discreetly, say that it so they feel more confident, so they can "know." They want purpose, etc.

Unfortunately the cold hard truth is too much for them. Life = human classification and nothing more. There is no purpose, not to reproduce, nothing. The world doesn't care about George Washington anymore. A few humans might, but the world doesn't. It doesn't matter what he believes.

Now a religious person explain to me how their religion came to be. I gave the logical version. Now I want to be entertained to hear yours.

MasTequila · #2 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WafflesFTW

Ever since the start of human society and intelligence, religion has existed to explain the unknown. As time passed on, and as more became known, religions started dying off. The Greeks/Romans had a god for almost everything. Because they didn't understand how almost everything worked. Thus, ego, the need to know everything, created these gods. And as these things became discovered, religion died off. Even today, this phenomenon is occurring. We look at the past and go "how could those idiots even have thought that" but that is what we are doing right now. We don't know the origin of life, its purpose, the end, and we, and our ego, make up stuff in order for us to "know". The simple geography of religion is enough proof for this. Religions all have a geographic origin where individuals made this stuff up. Then it spreads, and what you have now is all of that made up. So why believe? Even most religious, even discreetly, say that it so they feel more confident, so they can "know." They want purpose, etc.

Unfortunately the cold hard truth is too much for them. Life = human classification and nothing more. There is no purpose, not to reproduce, nothing. The world doesn't care about George Washington anymore. A few humans might, but the world doesn't. It doesn't matter what he believes.

Now a religious person explain to me how their religion came to be. I gave the logical version. Now I want to be entertained to hear yours.

Here I thought you were talking about the faith based religion of Evolution.

Catonian · #3 (**permalink**) 06-18-2008, 06:45 PM

Oh this is lovely! One of my favorite things is scholars such as yourself, forcing their opinions down the throats and people and chirping about how foolish religious people are. The world doesn't care about George Washington? And what relevance does that have to your argument? The loss of appreciation and observance the observance of historical figures is a tragic, tragic thing. We're too embedded culturally in what celebrities are doing than our own past... And I'm not sure whether you're condoning that or not, the tone of your statement sure sounds like it... And if that's the case, well... I already dislike you immensely.

You make it sounds as if religion is an invention based off of ego. Now, I find that somewhat of a contradictory statement. Isn't the pursuit of science and the furthering of our own knowledge and intelligence an act of extreme arrogance in itself? Science, without the drive of human ego that led to new discoveries and innovations, wouldn't exist. Religion would reign supreme in the belief category. It's ego that drives science, not religion. It's fear that drives religion. Fear, faith, or whatever you want to call it. How is believing in a higher being that has greater authority than all life in existence an egotistical thing? A large part of religion is faith, and a large part of faith is not trying to explain something, just believing in it.

Religions never just start to die off... Roman Paganism was replaced with the different sects of Christianity when Christendom took precedence over Paganism. For years ever after the Council of Nicaea, scads of offshoots to the "accepted" Christianity thrived in different parts of the Eastern and Western Roman Empire. Your argument that religion has slowly disappeared due to the realization of the mechanations of the world around us only reflects your own lack of knowledge on the subject. The number of religions decreased because of authority. Different sects of Christianity didn't disappear because innovation, they disappeared because of persecution and condemnation.

Paganism didn't disappear because we discovered more. It died off because the government that backed it slowly began to die off... Not because of discoveries, because the Pagan Romans slipped into a decline, which was the result of multiple things. Christianity was seen as a popular reform, one with strong moral standards. So Emperors, Pro-Magistrates, government figureheads began to adopt it to attempt and fix what had gone wrong... And when it proved to be too little too late, it was the Church that succeeded the Roman Empire. Paganism didn't disappear because we discovered the light bulb...

Despite all the bloodshed, killing, etc that religion has caused, it's the basis of government, and more importantly, moral standards. What you're condemning is the basis of the laws of society! I can make the arguable statement that without religion, society would be a hell of a lot more chaotic than it is now. Because no matter how you look at it, religion has done a lot more good than it has evil. It's led to the preservation of our past, our culture. It's the basis of giving, and some of the most foundational principles that we base our lives off of. Equality was such a popular consequence because of religion.

Society would be a lot more screwed up if we went around we were living without purpose... and that's the point I'm trying to drive here. I'm not condoning or condemning religion, but I am arguing the benefits that it's had on our society. And for you to blatantly condemn that, to argue that we live a purposeless life, is basically saying that you don't enjoy the relative peace of the world, or the equality offered to you. People like you, who forcibly push their opinions down the throats of people, spouting the uselessness of life and how purposeless we are, just (*)(*)(*)(*) me off.

JavaBlack · #4 (**permalink**) 06-19-2008, 05:26 AM

The need to understand even what we don't is part of human nature.
It actually helps our minds work more efficiently by allowing us to put non-pressing concerns to the side as though solved. Thinking is actually very expensive energy wise.

Even those of us without religion tend to accept tentative answers, even if that tentative answer is "I don't know and can't know." It's a bit harder to do that with more pressing things though... like death, suffering, "bad luck", etc. So most of us, no matter how void of religion, will rationalize answers for these things to help us get past them.

There are other elements to organized religion that have more to do with advantages in earlier societies and they remain due to their resilience regardless of actual utility... but it's the very limits of human cognitive ability that ensure we will have religion in some form forever. Add that to our social nature and political socieities... and you'll find organized religions.

It's part of being human.

WafflesFTW · #5 (**permalink**) 06-19-2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catonian

Oh this is lovely! One of my favorite things is scholars such as yourself, forcing their opinions down the throats and people and chirping about how foolish religious people are.

Tell that to your missionaries. And it isn't opinion. You still believe in Roman mythology?

The world doesn't care about George Washington? And what relevance does that have to your argument? The loss of appreciation and observance the observance of historical figures is a tragic, tragic thing. We're too embedded culturally in what celebrities are doing than our own past... And I'm not sure whether you're condoning that or not, the tone of your statement sure sounds like it... And if that's the case, well... I already dislike you immensely.

I don't like you either. It's ok, the feeling is mutual. The world doesn't care about GW. If you couldn't catch that... well that's why you are religious. That is relevant because it shows how minuscule human life is in the long run. Your life doesn't matter. If you committed suicide right now, barely anybody would care. Life would continue. I don't really care about the past, nor should we. They don't, err can't, care if you create a day after them or not. Respect does not matter. It matters to the people in the present, but not those in the past. In other words, its stroking our egos.

You make it sounds as if religion is an invention based off of ego. Now, I find that somewhat of a contradictory statement.

Exactly. That is what it is

Isn't the pursuit of science and the furthering of our own knowledge and intelligence an act of extreme arrogance in itself? Science, without the drive of human ego that led to new discoveries and innovations, wouldn't exist.

You are missing my point. Religion is a manifestation of ego, but science is driven by it. That does not, however, invalidate science.

Religion would reign supreme in the belief category. It's ego that drives science, not religion. It's fear that drives religion. Fear, faith, or whatever you want to call it. How is believing in a higher being that has greater authority than all life in existence an egotistical thing?

It is when that higher being "cares about you and loves you and makes sure you get plenty of hot ass in heaven"

A large part of religion is faith, and a large part of faith is not trying to explain something, just believing in it.

Yeah. I had faith in the Lakers. Did it matter? Lets analyze that situation. Religion = me saying LAKERS I KNOW YOU WILL WIN. I'M GONNA INVEST TONS AND TONS OF MONEY BETTING ON YOUR TEAM BECAUSE I KNOW YOU WILL WIN. Science = Hmmm, Celtic's defense seems to be doing well now. Laker's Kobe Bryant is a one man team. 5 man defense > 1 man offense. Celtics will win. The result? Religion = AH WTF ALL THIS TIME AND EFFORT AND MONEY I INVESTED IS FOR NOTHING. Science = eheheheh

Religions never just start to die off... Roman Paganism was replaced with the different sects of Christianity when Christendom took precedence over Paganism. For years ever after the Council of Nicaea, scads of offshoots to the "accepted" Christianity thrived in different parts of the Eastern and Western Roman Empire. Your argument that religion has slowly disappeared due to the realization of the mechanations of the world around us only reflects your own lack of knowledge on the subject. The number of religions decreased because of authority. Different sects of Christianity didn't disappear because innovation, they disappeared because of persecution and condemnation.

Persecution and condemnation are a reflection of strength which is a reflection of technology which is a reflection of how much more advanced science is in that society.

Paganism didn't disappear because we discovered more. It died off because the government that backed it slowly began to die off... Not because of discoveries, because the Pagan Romans slipped into a decline, which was the result of multiple things. Christianity was seen as a popular reform, one with strong moral standards. So Emperors, Pro-Magistrates, government figureheads began to adopt it to attempt and fix what had gone wrong... And when it proved to be too little too late, it was the Church that succeeded the Roman Empire. Paganism didn't disappear because we discovered the light bulb...

How far up your ass has Christianity reached? They liked our "Moral" reforms? HAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHA. More like, they'd rather not have their head sliced off.

Despite all the bloodshed, killing, etc that religion has caused, it's the basis of government, and more importantly, moral standards.

No it isn't. Proof?

What you're condemning is the basis of the laws of society! I can make the arguable statement that without religion, society would be a hell of a lot more chaotic than it is now.

Not arguable, simply false. Prove it.

Because no matter how you look at it, religion has done a lot more good than it has evil. It's led to the preservation of our past, our culture. It's the basis of giving, and some of the most foundational principles that we base our lives off of. Equality was such a popular consequence because of religion.

No it wasn't. It hasn't done a lot more good than evil. Religion caused inequality idiot. I can't believe you actually said that. White's thought they were superior because they were Christian, and enslaved Blacks and forced the "pagans" to convert. Its the basis of giving in the sense you give as much money as possible to the pope so he can buy new shoes. You have no proof that religion has caused giving. Correlation =/ causation.

Society would be a lot more screwed up if we went around we were living without purpose... and that's the point I'm trying to drive here.

So you just made one up? That's my point too.

I'm not condoning or condemning religion, but I am arguing the benefits that it's had on our society.

Virtually none.

And for you to blatantly condemn that, to argue that we live a purposeless life, is basically saying that you don't enjoy the relative peace of the world, or the equality offered to you.

How does living a purposeless life have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with peace or equality.

People like you, who forcibly push their opinions down the throats of people, spouting the uselessness of life and how purposeless we are, just (*)(*)(*)(*) me off.

Religious nutjobs like yourself who think they know everything about the world, their invisible sky daddy, and try to shove that (*)(*)(*)(*) down MY throat (*)(*)(*)(*) me off.

Ten characters b/c I wrote inside the quote.

Herkdriver · #6 (**permalink**) 06-19-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WafflesFTW

Ever since the start of human society and intelligence, religion has existed to explain the unknown. As time passed on, and as more became known, religions started dying off. The Greeks/Romans had a god for almost everything. Because they didn't understand how almost everything worked. Thus, ego, the need to know everything, created these gods. And as these things became discovered, religion died off. Even today, this phenomenon is occurring. We look at the past and go "how could those idiots even have thought that" but that is what we are doing right now. We don't know the origin of life, its purpose, the end, and we, and our ego, make up stuff in order for us to "know". The simple geography of religion is enough proof for this. Religions all have a geographic origin where individuals made this stuff up. Then it spreads, and what you have now is all of that made up. So why believe? Even most religious, even discreetly, say that it so they feel more confident, so they can "know." They want purpose, etc.

Unfortunately the cold hard truth is too much for them. Life = human classification and nothing more. There is no purpose, not to reproduce, nothing. The world doesn't care about George Washington anymore. A few humans might, but the world doesn't. It doesn't matter what he believes.

Now a religious person explain to me how their religion came to be. I gave the logical version. Now I want to be entertained to hear yours.

Seems you have watched Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth"

Firstly I don't see man's (humans) attempts at seeking spirituality as, in your words, stupid.
I don't laugh at the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans etc.

You don't know that there is no Divine, you don't know that there is no God or Gods.
You don't know what occurs after Death,
You don't know the true origins of the Universe, only the cause and effect residual aftermath.

A large part of Science is theoretical. No one with a rational mind denies facts, but certainly a theory is not a Fact.

Therefore you are not being intellectually honest with yourself anymore than the Religious,
whether modern or ancient, by knowing as Fact; the reality beyond what we experience as human beings

Herkdriver · #7 (**permalink**) 06-19-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catonian

, who forcibly push their opinions down the throats of people, spouting the uselessness of life and how purposeless we are, just (*)(*)(*)(*) me off.

In defense of this gentlemen, he's posting his opinion. I don't equate that with forcibly pushing his opinion down the throats of people.

It appears, that philosophically he's a Nihilist or something like that.
His loss is how I look at it.

[profanity removed] way to go through life if you ask me, probably takes a few years off the old ticker living the Hobbesian "life is short, nasty and brutish" way of thinking.

You turn into a self-fullfilling prophecy that way...because so as you think, so as you are.

WafflesFTW · #8 (**permalink**) 06-19-2008, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herkdriver

In defense of this gentlemen, he's posting his opinion. I don't equate that with forcibly pushing his opinion down the throats of people.

It appears, that philosophically he's a Nihilist or something like that.
His loss is how I look at it.

Why my loss? I don't waste my time at church/temple/whatever. I'm quite happy and I don't require an invisible sky daddy in order to be.

way to go through life if you ask me, probably takes a few years off the old ticker living the Hobbesian "life is short, nasty and brutish" way of thinking.

Better than being on your knees, sucking your sky daddy's cock your entire life.

You turn into a self-fullfilling prophecy that way...because so as you think, so as you are.

The problem with being rich and happy is? I don't have a god? Am I supposed ot be offended?

Essentially, all you have done, is justified God's existence because you think it's like a drug that makes you feel better, which fits with my argument. You simply can't say its "right" because you don't know.

Answers are in quote

amh73 · #9 (**permalink**) 06-19-2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WafflesFTW

Answers are in quote

Actually, you have a lot more to lose than believers do my friend. I am a Christian and that makes my earthly life a lot more enjoyable. If I am wrong and you are right, then simply I lived a good life. However, if you are wrong there is so much more at stake. I won't even go into the possibility of Hell. I believe in it but don't believe in scaring people to the alter. Instead, Let's say that Hell didn't even exist and non believers just died. You still lose out on eternity. It isn't something that you should dismiss. Neither, should you accept a religion because you were raised to do so. Try to look at all sides of the argument. There is too much at stake. What if I became a Christian just because my parents were and Islam turned out to be true or vice versa. From a gambler's standpoint, the odds are very much against evolution and the Big Bang.

i.beletesri · #10 (**permalink**) 06-19-2008, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasTequila

Here I thought you were talking about the faith based religion of Evolution.

There is Nothing 'Faith Based' about Evolution.
Unlike the Hocus Pocus religions, evolution was first the result of the direct Observations of nature by one man.

Since confirmed 8 ways to heaven:
Carbon Dating
The extensive/Millions of Fossil and Geologic records
and most recently, DNA analysis.

That's Not "Faith Based".
All Gods are Faith based and created by Man. Thousands of Gods.
-

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