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Old 07-08-2008, 06:17 PM
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Default Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination



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KANSAS CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist.

Army Spc. Jeremy Hall, who was raised Baptist but is now an atheist, says the military violated his religious freedom.

Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.

He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.

Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.

In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.

"I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said.

Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.

Two years ago on Thanksgiving Day, after refusing to pray at his table, Hall said he was told to go sit somewhere else. In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, "Do you believe in Jesus now?"

Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.

He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.

"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.

Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he's been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.

"Our Pentagon, our Pentacostalgon, is refusing to realize that when you put the uniform on, there's only one religious faith: patriotism," Weinstein said.

Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall's case -- citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.

"If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that's acceptable," said Carr. "And that's a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith."

Weinstein said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.

Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Weinstein has a different interpretation.

"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army," he says.

But Carr said the military's position is clear.

"Proselytizing or advancing a religious conviction is not what the nation would have us do and it's not what the military does," Carr said.

The U.S. Justice Department is expected to respond to Hall's lawsuit this week. In the meantime, he continues to work in the military police unit at Fort Riley and plans to leave as soon as his tour of duty expires next year.
Your thoughts?
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:21 PM
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I'm an atheist myself, but I'd urge this guy to grow at least one ball. I'd like to see an atheist like him try living in a theocracy for one day.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:25 PM
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LOL! I'm an agnostic, but that was funny, Tim.

If his claims are substantiated, people should be punished. He shouldn't suffer harassment -- and especially official harassment -- because of his (lack of) beliefs.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehran Tim View Post
I'm an atheist myself, but I'd urge this guy to grow at least one ball. I'd like to see an atheist like him try living in a theocracy for one day.
I'm not too sure of the legitimacy of the claims, and that's not to say that I don't believe him. In order to actively sue, he would have to have proof that the denial to promote was based solely off of religious (or lack thereof) belief. If he has the proper time in grade/years in service... there are a limited amount of factors that can prevent rank promotion. I think an internal investigation is deserved as to the reasons he wasn't given rank following his service. If the evidence points to discrimination, then of course a suit is optional.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:29 PM
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I wonder if he was preaching some sort of militant atheism..? I meet people all the time who insist on the 'God talk' and when they find that I don't believe in a God the Father but a unifying theory of the universe they seem to take it well. I very obviously have no problem with religions. The military is probably a whole lot different though.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by StarryStarrySkies View Post
I wonder if he was preaching some sort of militant atheism..? I meet people all the time who insist on the 'God talk' and when they find that I don't believe in a God the Father but a unifying theory of the universe they seem to take it well. I very obviously have no problem with religions. The military is probably a whole lot different though.
As I read it again, I'm starting to not buy it... especially the part where his humvee was hit, and a fellow soldier says "Do you believe in Jesus now?". Who's thinking about the lack of belief of another at a time like that? That's not to say it's impossible, I'm just sceptical. My bunk-mate in Iraq was a non-believer. So what. We're there to perform a mission... there are more important things to worry about. My guess is he was quick to enforce his belief whenever/if ever the notion of "God" came up.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
As I read it again, I'm starting to not buy it... especially the part where his humvee was hit, and a fellow soldier says "Do you believe in Jesus now?". Who's thinking about the lack of belief of another at a time like that? That's not to say it's impossible, I'm just sceptical. My bunk-mate in Iraq was a non-believer. So what. We're there to perform a mission... there are more important things to worry about. My guess is he was quick to enforce his belief whenever/if ever the notion of "God" came up.
When I'm at the dinner table and my family or friends family or friends decide to pray, I don't refuse bitterly, I lower my head out of respect for them. He may have made a big fuss about prayer at dinner or gotten into one too many heated religious debates that resulted in him being treated like a militant atheist. But really, who knows. I've been treated like (*)(*)(*)(*) for not believing when I was being pleasant as can be so you never know. but generally if you're respectful, so are those with opposing views.
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom View Post
As I read it again, I'm starting to not buy it... especially the part where his humvee was hit, and a fellow soldier says "Do you believe in Jesus now?". Who's thinking about the lack of belief of another at a time like that? That's not to say it's impossible, I'm just sceptical. My bunk-mate in Iraq was a non-believer. So what. We're there to perform a mission... there are more important things to worry about. My guess is he was quick to enforce his belief whenever/if ever the notion of "God" came up.
The part that made me skeptical was them having to assign him a bodyguard. A bodyguard? Just because he is atheist? Do all atheists in the military require a bodyguard?
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Forest119 View Post
The part that made me skeptical was them having to assign him a bodyguard. A bodyguard? Just because he is atheist? Do all atheists in the military require a bodyguard?
I'd be inclined to believe that, just because it's very easy to determine objectively. Why lie about something that is easily disproved?

But it's odd.

Like I said, the claims need to be substantiated before they can be taken seriously. Accusations are cheap. The military wasn't some Christian Warrior Cult when I was in, but that was 20 years ago. And the influence of (particularly) evangelical christians has grown in the intervening decades.

It's one side effect of the increasing separation between the military and the rest of society. As the military draws heavily on a smaller and smaller slice of the population for recruits, it becomes more insular -- an insularity that is enforced by the increasing lack of knowledge most civilians have about the military. That could have far-reaching consequences down the road.

I get into it a bit here:
http://midtopia.blogspot.com/2006/03...litary-on.html
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raytri View Post
I'd be inclined to believe that, just because it's very easy to determine objectively. Why lie about something that is easily disproved?
You misunderstood my point. I do believe he needed a bodyguard. I just believe there is something more going on than him simply being an atheist.
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