In the right corner, weighing in with a bunch of hot air we have the "reform-minded"... well, at least well-meaning folks who obsessively check RadicalIslamWatch or whatever the hell its called looking for reasons to be scared and hopeless... The naysayers.

In the black trunks, with enough intensity to bash your mother(*)(*)(*)(*)ing head through the mother(*)(*)(*)(*)ing wall HEAVY METAL!!!

I just heard on NPR some talk with the writer of this book:
http://heavymetalislam.net/

And I hate to tell the poor naysayers, but it looks like there is some actual hope... and it doesn't come in the form of paternalistic outsiders.

Let us count the accomplishments:

Naysayers:
*continuously credit violent extremists and dictators with having the right interpretation of the Qu'uran(somhow this is supposed to help).
*start lots of go-nowhere debates on websites frequented mostly by Westerners... (somehow this is supposed to help)
*effectively call moderate Muslims hypocrites, blasphemers, liars, or figments of my imagination.
*congratulate and thank anti-Western, pro-terror Muslims for their sincerity
*claim to care.

Heavy (*)(*)(*)(*)ing metal!!!
*gives voice to young Muslims living in terrible circumstances somewhere between the two worlds.
*motivates the young fans to stand up for their rights, violate the laws and traditions, even overturn unjust court cases against their metal brethren
*has made a Jewish Arab Israeli death metal band an underground sensation and role model for metalheads across the Muslim world
*even if it does nothing, at least it rocks (rather than just blows out hot air)!

It's stuff like this that should give us hope.
Metal was there at the fall of the Soviet Union. It is the music of the youth in areas that are cesspool
And we should know from history that music can be a big part of a revolution.
And it does a lot more than the xenophobia of paranoid outsiders.

All this just reaffirms to me the basic truth of life: Metal rules!

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

I don't see why this would be a "vs" thing.

The Islamaphobes believe that moderate muslims twist the Koran to make it give a peaceful message.

They would simply believe that Heavy Metal Islam is doing that twisting, and probably like them for it.

First, you (Or Java Black) is going to have to define 'Islamophobe' for us... as you seem to be doing poorly at already.
I started a string on this poorly used word:
The Islamophobia Myth

Second, you're going to have to define 'Moderate Muslim' for us.

Since everything your Goofy generality says depends completely on those terms.

__________________

I can't wait to see Dave Mustaine, the conqueror of the middle east, land on an aircraft carrier in the Gulf and play "Holy Wars." That would be awesome.

The fallen statue of Saddam could be replaced with a stature of Vic Rattlehead holding a banner that says "Mission Accomplished."

__________________
"The greatest epochs of our life come when we gain the courage to rechristen our evils as what is best in us." -Nietzsche

The vs. thing is a snub. It's my contribution.

To put it in simple and less funny terms:
Nay-sayers contribute nothing but increased paranoia.
Kids in Muslim societies produce change and make their religion work in the modern world.

Nay-sayers think these kids are either useless or a figment of my imagination... but they've already done a whole lot more than these RadicalIslamFolks could dream of.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

Well the writer of the book would agree that these kids aren't "moderate" but the real radicals (meaning they will bring change).

But they fit the definition of the "moderates" you guys claim do not exist in any magnitude.

Really the moderates are the masses that don't really get involved in any of it... but you guys usually lump them in with the "extremists"

I'm adapting to your guys' definitions... How much nicer can I be?

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

I think I posted on this a while ago:

Islamic Punk Rock

Similarly, there is Matisyahu - Hasidic Jew reggae. By the way, my kids and I are going to see Matisyahu at the warped tour on Sunday in Jacksonville. More on Matisyahu, who by the way kicks ass. Live at Stubbs is simply a great CD.

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I'll get nicer when you get smarter.

Yeah, ol' Matisyahu is coming to Missoula at the end of this month, too. I know a lot of young Jews that really identify with him.

__________________
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. – H.L. Mencken

I refuse to trade humanity for patriotism.

Huh?

I would like to think these Heavy-Metallers are the 'Moderates'.. but as you now admit (in at least the first part of your contradictory post), they are the Radicals.

When I think of 'Moderate' when applied to other religions, I think of 'Secular'/non-literalist like 90% of Christians and Jews.

When we talk about Fundamantalists in Christianity we are talking about Biblical Literalists.. who also "Don't really get involved in any of it".

So there is a Double Standard being applied.

An Intolerant Koranic Literalist who wants Sharia Law (and perhaps even a worldwide Caliphate) can be 'Moderate' by your usage.. but Pat Robertson (ie) who's Piety is about the Same (but whose Holy Book is at least compatible, in fact the basis for Western Culture), is a 'Fundamentalist' and Mocked for his views by you Western Liberal Hypocrites.

I believe ALL Holy Book Literalists are Fundamentalists and NOT 'moderate'.

And being a Literalist to the Koran and it's anti-Jewish and anti-Christian Dogma is More dangerous than being a NT Literalist.

So please when using these terms.. why not start calling those of us who are FAIR in applying these them (or yourself) 'Christianophobes'.
Yes, every time someone here mocks Western/Christian/Robertson/Falwell Literalism... lets call them 'Christianophobes'.

Because I am Anti-Literalist, Anti-Fundamentalist of all stripe.

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I'll try to break it down for you.
They are radicals in that they will bring change to Islam. However it is change that you and I would consider moderate: bringing Islamic society into the 21st century.
If you think about it, an Iranian listening to an Israeli death metal band is pretty radical.
But it's what you'd call "moderate".

Moderates are really people between the radicals and the reactionaries (reactionaries would be fundies and terrorists). But you guys usually dismiss them as "radicals" when claiming "moderate Islam is a myth" because they do not try to stop the reactionaries and they still follow their traditions.

So the problem lies in our differing definitions. I laid it out in your definitions.
The metalheads are "moderates".

Now I'm confused that you're agreeing they are radicals! They do exactly what you would expect the "moderates" (which you guys claim do not exist) to do!

Which these metalheads and other progressives resemble.
And the people who are actually moderates relative to their societies who will not act, but will not stop them.

Actually "fundamentalist" is practically defined as "don't get involved in it".
When fundamentalists get violent, it is essentially because they believe the larger world is invading their "space". This is exactly the case in the isolated incidents of violent Christian fundies in America.
Fundies of all religions have hostility toward the outside world and want to keep their faith "pure" and will generally fight for that purpose.
The term is overused. Evangelicals in the US are actually the opposite in that they specifically wish to go out in the world and change it... and tend to view those they are changing as lost brethren or whatever.
When Muslim fundamentalists attempt to change the outside world, it stems from a belief that they are fighting an "aggressor" or trying to "reclaim what is theirs."

So it is actually possible to claim that a large portion of the Muslim world is fundamentalist... but that does not equal violent extremist.
The problem is that all this panicky rhetoric going around uses fundamentalist, radical, extremist, and terrorist interchangably.

But... with that in mind... the movement I pointed out stands against all of them.


I don't see how. I'm not the one who turned fundie into a synonym with killer. I'm just accepting the popular terminology to try to make my point.

Unfortunately the popular terminology is so twisted, it is impossible to make a tangible point with.

I am not the one who decided moderate has thousands of meanings.
For clarity, maybe instead of just trying to claim "there is no moderate" by selectively narrowing and broadening the scope of the word... we should look at all of its contextual meanings individually when assessing things.
"Moderate" as the opposite of "extreme" only works if we know what exactly we are measuring rather than looping it all together.
So let us take a moment.

1. between violent and anti-violent
2. between the political left (radicals) and the political right (reactionaries) relative to the society
3. between religious traditionalism (fundamentalism/literalism) and religious reform (secular/liberal)

Okay. Let's do these one at a time.

For 1. Violent people are well... violent. Anti-violent would be people like Gandhi... or at least people who stand against violence strongly. Any one who simply avoids violence (most people) would be moderate.
For 2. Progressives and secular liberals are left. Hardliners and theocrats on the right. People who take no strong stance or avoid politics are moderates.
For 3. The extreme literalist clerics who interpret extremely traditional lifestyles are one side, those who want new interpretations on the other. There are a lot of grades in between and moderate will really depend on the makeup of the society.

Now the problem is... that not all these things line up together. Sure there may be higher propensity toward some group memberships in others. But there's no definite 100% correlation.
One problem is that "literalist" and "fundamentalist" do not always mean the same thing. Funny thing about literalism is that it is always selective and points toward an interpretation.
It is impossible to read something without adding to it.
That's why fundie Christians believe in Genesis literally but do not stone their children. They believe in literal translation, but they have rationalizations for other things.
The same happens in Islam but the standard deviation is far higher. But there are plenty who interpret the lines you think "literally" read for violence as having a nonviolent meaning.
And most of the stuff we complain about is Arab tribal tradition rather than anything found in the Qu'uran. That falls almost into a whole different group somewhere between politics and religion- culture maybe.

They are by definition. But fundamentalist does not mean violent or politically extreme.
But in pop usage, it has become synonymous with them when speaking of Islam.

Except that plenty take the meanings literally without believing in the violence.
Fundies just disliking and looking down on people of other religions... well, that's normal. What matters is whether they just try to live their own lives or try to "defend their faith".


If people are as obsessive as the anti-Islam folk, I'll consider that fair. If they truly seek to claim Christianity is unreformable, dangerous, and whatnot- then it fits. It is indeed fear.
Usually religion-phobes tends to work better for them though.

Maybe you fit that better... but there are plenty of people who espouse Christianity and obsess over Islam.

And really, once I had the attention with a catchy title using a phrase you know... I changed it to my phrase: nay-sayer. It applies to those who think Islam is incapable of reform... specifically those who also go on to attack reformers and moderates as "insincere" or "heretical".

I think you sometimes take the "anti-fundamentalist" tendencies to the point of being a fundamentalism all its own... but what can you do?

Keep in mind. This ad was in a semi-comical tone and it is not aimed specifically at you, but at the broader group of people who obsess over Islam and spread doom and gloom about it constantly.

__________________
"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside