Relative moral values

galaxguy · #1 (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 06:06 PM

First, the argument which makes this important.

1. Without a God, Objective moral values cannot exist.

2. Objective moral values exist.

3. Therefore there is a God.

The general atheist response to this argument is to attack premise two by retreating to relative moral values. This thread is meant to discuss the ideas of the above argument and I will start by adressing relative moral values.

galaxguy · #2 (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 06:11 PM

1st, what are relative moral values?

Relative morals are morals that are relevant to the person society or time frame. In other words, relative morals are moral rules that only hold true to the person using them, the society in which they are being used, or the time frame in which they are being used.

The first problem with this is logical. Suppose that a man from country A has an affair with a woman from country B in a hotel in country C. Also suppose that all three countries have different moral viewpoints on affairs. Which set of morals apply?

galaxguy · #3 (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 06:14 PM

The second problem with relative moral values is this.

Suppose Hitler had won WWII and that he had finished killing or brainwashing everyone who held opposing viewpoints. If we apply relative moral values to this sittuation, then genocide would now be something that was considered morally permisable.

Makedde · #4 (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galaxguy

1. Without a God, Objective moral values cannot exist.

How do you determine this?

galaxguy · #5 (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 06:18 PM

Thirdly:

Since relative moral values are relative to the person that holds them, then that basically means: "take the action that has the best outcome for you", which means "do whatever you can get away with", which is the same thing as having no moral values at all.

So relative moral values are, in essence, the same thing as no moral values at all.

Makedde · #6 (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galaxguy

Thirdly:

Since relative moral values are relative to the person that holds them, then that basically means: "take the action that has the best outcome for you", which means "do whatever you can get away with", which is the same thing as having no moral values at all.

So relative moral values are, in essence, the same thing as no moral values at all.

I have some moral values, and I believe in certain things that others consider to be moral issues - does this mean there is a God?

galaxguy · #7 (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makedde

How do you determine this?

You missed the previous thread so I will explain it here.

This is evidence for premise 1, which states that in order for objective moral values to exist, there must be a god.

This is from an excellent book on the subject entitled Philisophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview (although it is foundations for a Christian worldview, most of the arguments can be used to support theism in general as well)

Quote:

To say that there are objective moral values is to say that something is right or wrong independent of whether anybody believes it to be so. It is to say, for example, that Nazi anti-Semitism was morally wrong, even though the Nazis who carried out the Holocaust thought that it was good, and it would still be wrong even if the Nazis had won World War II and succeeded in exterminating or brainwashing everybody who disagreed with them. On classical theism God's own holy and perfectly good nature supplies the absolute standard against which all actions and decisions are measured.

Without a God, or something above us, there is no source which we can attribute objective moral values to.

same book

Quote:

Contrast the atheistic hypothesis. If God does not exist, then what is the foundation for moral values? More particularly, what is the basis for the value of human beings? If God does not exist, then it is difficult ot see any reason to think that human beings are special or that their morality is objectively valid. Moreover, why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything? Who or what imposes any moral duties upon us?

Makedde · #8 (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

If God does not exist, then what is the foundation for moral values?

Couldn't people just come up with their own ideas of what is moral and what is not? Isn't that what we do everyday - in the way some people believe certain things are immoral, while others believe different?

VolvoDriver · #9 (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galaxguy

First, the argument which makes this important.

1. Without a God, Objective moral values cannot exist.

Now that's a big assumption. Why not? And while we're at it, why do you think that God gives objective moral values? God's view of things is definitely different from ours. God's moral values may be very subjective.

If this is your starting point, you have some work to do before we even think about moving on to point 2.

galaxguy · #10 (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 06:28 PM

I'm sorry, most of you missed the discussion leading up to this thread becuase you missed the discussion in "there is no logical or empiracle evidence..."

But, check out the above posted evidence for premise 1.

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